Steve ain't a classy guy warning---->longgg

Actually, I personally think that Vancouver Bay is the most beautiful area in North America. I spent a summer on Widby Island, visited Vancouver, and fished salmon runs in the area, and the combination of water, mountains, trees, is amazing. If I lived there, I'd have a hard time getting things done, because it is so beautiful. I had a hard time going back to the smog in Houston at the end of that summer.

I wonder why that Vancouver continues to have bad teams, when they keep drafting good talent? The Vancouver Grizzly franchise historically underperforms. In one year of rebuilding, Houston is farther ahead than Vancouver is after 10. Why is that? Is everyone too mellow up there, enjoying the scenery?

It's like Swift not wanting to go to LAC. LAC is also known for underperformance, no matter what talent they draft. In my opinion, its a bad career move to go to either place. Until Vancouver gets some passion on their team, good coaching, management, and on-court leadership, people won't want to come there. Taxes don't help, of course, but I think it has more to do with an underperforming franchise. Maybe they're pacified by the scenery.

I don't agree with what Francis did at the draft either. But I understand it. Not only would he not fit in around there, since he's not a mellow guy, but plays with passion, but he was going to be played at a position that would have caused him to fall short of his objectives in the NBA. Bibby was just too good for him to try to replace. He warned Vancouver. They should have listened. What he did was passionate, but I also agree it wasn't a classy move. Fortunately, both teams came out good on the trade.

I don't have a problem with you accusing Francis of doing some things that aren't classy, but I do have a problem with you saying or other Vancouver fans saying he has no class, which just sounds like sour grapes. That is just not accurate. Has he shown immaturity? ... absolutely, but he is growing from the experience quickly, on a track to being classy. He will have to pay for what he did. It probably will give him a certain amount of humility that will lead to greater classiness.

(I was amused about how when Shareef's elbow was cut breaking Steve's tooth, you thought that was an example of having no class. Bruising other peoples's fists and elbows with my face seldom shows my class.)

The problem has to do with passion. It's part of what makes him so great. He takes his game to a whole other level than most players in the NBA. It's hard to do passion very classy. Classy comes with time. Until you see how he handles his success, which results from that type of passion, a judgement about classiness cannot be accurately made. He is allowed to play with that kind of passion here in Houston, but he would have suffocated in Vancouver, the way they play.

I'm glad Vancouver fans feel they got the better deal, and that Houston fans feel they got the better deal. That's the best kind of trade. But please don't come down here and say Steve has no class. That is innacurate.

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the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

 

Please go back and re-read your initial post. You stated:

That is what I objected to. You made a good case for concluding that he has not made it to the level of being described as "a classy guy" yet, even though I think he is doing other things that will eventually take him there, which you have ignored. He also does classy things, but they do not yet define all his actions, as you have pointed out.

The problem, in my opinion, is an issue of passion rather than class.

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the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

 

This is a pretty funny thread. I think it's funny that we're actually discussing the "classiness" of this 23 year old kid. I myself am 23 and I'm in my first year on the job. I have to admit that I have made plenty of mistakes in this first year of working. Thankfully, people don't continue to judge me based on those past mistakes, but instead just chalk them up to learning and gaining experience. I think the same can be done for Steve.

That being said, I don't think that V-Dude makes a very strong case for Steve not being classy. I agree that he made a mistake with the whole Vancouver draft situation, but at least he did admit that he made a mistake. Every other example about Francis being classless is very weak. Trash talking, flagrant fouls, blah, blah, blah. Oh wait, my favorite was the "F**K Vancouver" incident. Assuming this actually happened, I'm not surprised at all. This kid was in a hostile environment. He was in a place where people booed him everytime he touched the ball and then even threw objects at him. I really don't blame him for harboring ill feelings toward the fans. Not the classiest move, but certainly one that somebody could understand. V-Dude, you sound sooooo surprised that he would actually say something so bad. You know, maybe I'm just saying this because you mentioned Stockton as someone who actually fits your definition of classy (exuding elegance and sophistication). I guess he flops elegantly?

Anyways, I think I've rambled on long enough. In a nutshell...Francis is still a kid, so let's let him grow and learn before we make any final judgements.

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hmmm...let me repeat what you've said and what most every vancouver fan said before you:


1. I don't mean to dis Houston or its fans
(read, you can't attack me here)

2. I am here to say something you haven't heard before
(read, I'm important)

3. Francis is not classy
(read, I'm classier than most 21 yr olds)

Once the responses roll in:

4. You don't understand
(read, I forgot a disclaimer in 1 through 3)

5. You didn't read number 4
(read, several people are jumping on you for the same slip-up in your long post)

6. You are not worth responding to, clearly not showing normal Houston intelligence
(read, someone out of 1,500 posters is now jabbing at you just to illicit frustration)

7. You are right, and the type of person I expect from Houston
(read, lame attempt to rally support around the few who care)

8. Droning Diatribe #2
(read, now you are taking on some meaty posts and getting cornered with something you are't prepared for)

9. I still think...
(read, you escape back to the ones who sympathize)

10. You now walk away in triumph or stay and learn that several people here are ready to socialize...as long as you allow people to speak their voice without summing them up in 1-9 above.

this is so old. Stay and play...or go away Dude. Prepare for some diversity and playful abuse. And stop referencing a dictionary. damn, man.

 

Well I guess Dream is just as classless as Stevie. Dream even in his latter years has been ejected for unclassy things, such as fighting with Antonio "Dice" getting ejected several times for arguing with refs, not to mention that totally classless incident he had when he hit the ref. Oh and giving high fives(totaly classless). Do you see how anyone can be made into an unclassy guy when you don't include both sides?

Other than the Dallas incident your supporting details were rather weak. He shouldnt have fouled Dirk but that definately was not a punch. Pack came after him and grabbed him by the waiste and was in his face and Francis took a swipe at the guys hands in downward slapping motion, although his hands were made into fists the intent was never to punch as one can clearly see if he should watch the footage more than once. The Fact that the NBA did not consider it a punch also proves my point.

The fact that he called Utah dirty is not classless. He was just calling a spade a spade, the fact that the next sentence out of his mouth was praise to the Utah team proves that he does have class. If I remember correctly Steve said that maybe the Rockets should play like Utah since it is a winning formula, or something to that effect.

As for him demanding a trade, I'm sorry but he did not say that he would not play for the NBA, just Vancouver. He has a right to look out for himself, and if that means him wanting to pay less taxes then so be it. John Elway, Eric Lindros, Keith Jackson, Vlade Divac, Chris Webber. All these players refused to play for the teams attempting to aquire them whether that being in a trade or draft, with the exception of Webber and Jackson all are considered classy, is it because they are white? I don't think so, but if Francis were Elway would we be hearing this right now? The fact that he told them I WILL NOT PLAY FOR YOU before hand shows class, the fact that they drafted him shows me that Vancouver a) did not believe him or b) played it smart and grabbed the best player available, knowing that someone would reward them for the rights to Franchise.

Ps. I have probably watched more Vancouver games the past three years than you have. I live on the west coast and always liked Reef(He used to hook me up with free Pizza in Berkley)and with the aquisition of Dick, O, and Bob Barker(Price) I became an even bigger fan of Van. Until my Dss went out in Febuary (745 if u know what I mean) I watched probably more Vancouver games than Rockets games(I couldn't make it in time for a lot of Rox games as some started at 4 for me) so Its not like I disagree with you just becuase your a Vancouver fan.

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"We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day

 

Vancouver_Dude:

I accept your apology. Unfortunately, I don't have time at the moment to do what you did and research the proof to back up my case about him being on a track towards developing class. If I have time later, I'll try to do so.

I have seen and heard him on some interviews where I was very impressed with how he handled himself. He demonstrated class in a number of those interviews.

Rudy, who sees him everyday, <a href="http://www.nba.com/rockets/francis_transcript_000511.html">at the end of the season said</a>, "Today I can say that Steve Francis is a very good NBA player. But I also believe that because of his athleticism and the skills that he possesses, he has a chance to be one of the best ever at his position. I believe that he will accomplish that because of the type of person he is. He has a great heart, he is fearless, and he is confident. But he is also very coachable, he has an open mind, he is willing to learn and he is willing to put in the work to get better. What makes him special is that he wants to do it the right way. Steve knows that the true measure of a great player is that he makes his teammates better and that's what he wants to do. He is going to have a great career in this league but he will never do it at the expense of his teammates."

He's been showing himself to be a team player, putting others before himself, has a learning spirit, and passion for excellence. In his interviews, he hasn't been arrogant, but has shown maturity and humility I didn't expect. I don't have time to back up my points at the moment.

Perhaps some others on this BBS, who have more time than I do at the moment, can spotlight some specifics for the gentleman from Vancouver...

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the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

 

Instance 1-I don't think I am the only one having a hard time believing this. Provide some factual evidence of this.

Instance 2-He was visibly upset and I can't really say anything else about this.

Instance 3-The Dirk Nowitzki foul was not one with intent to injure. Yes Francis threw a punch but not before he was origionally attacked and hit with a cheap shot that went unnoticed by the refs.

Instance 4-The Gary Payton technical was nothing. The ref had absolutely no right to call a technical. It was all the way from acroos the court. Payton had been trying to get in his head the whole game and the refs took the conversation the wrong way. Francis was getting advice on how to play the game from one of the leagues great point guards. Anyways Payton eneded up paying the fine for Francis because of the misunderstanding.

Instance 5-The taunting had just came off an amazing play where Stevie through a pass to himself off the backboard for the easy 2. The game had gotten out of control. The fans were verbally abusive and the refs were letting the game get too rough both ways. Carr had just tried to hurt Stevie a few plays earlier I believe, he got ascessed with the flagrant of course. It had the atmosphere as if punches were about to be exchanged at midcourt by the two teams.

Instance 6-Staring does not demonstrate a persons calss. Everybody stares at referees at one time or another. I have seen Avery Johnson stare and Brent Price stare at refs and they are two of the classiest people you will ever meet. By the way Brent gave the commencment prayer at much church last Sunday, pretty cool for anybody that cares.

Instance 7-As far as the Wahad foul goes it was not really even flagrant. When Wahad went back to the lockerroom and saw the tape of the play he told reporters that he didn't even think the foul was flagrant. He just basically lost his balance in mid air.

Instance 8-I don't know ho many times you ever seen Utah play but they are team of cheap shots and flops. Believe Rocket fans we know. We are their biggest rival and they are our biggest rivals. Not to mention it was not being a sour loser. He still said the same thing after they beat Utah.

Instance 9-He probably should not have thrown the mouth guard. It was probably uncalled for but definately blown out of proportion. Definately a very emotional moment.

Instance 10-The so called "clothseline" on Carter was not much of a clothesline. As a matter of fact the replay showed that Stevie got all ball. Those two can both rise when you block a ball while they are both 12 feet in the air momentum is going to take one person the wrong way. Carter got the worse of it and the flagrant callbecause he is who the NBA is calling the next Michael Jordan. However a couple days later the NBA REVERSED the call saying it was not a flagrant foul. To reverse on the premier NBA poster boy tells you one thing, it was not flangrabt, let alone a clothesline.

Instance 11-Everybody in the NBA talks trash in some form or another. It is part of their ego. Yes, even Bibby talks trash. Its apart of the game. It has absolutely nothing to do with class.

Instance 12-You cannot believe everything you read on the net. Some things are true but there are whole lot more lies on the net. A lot more lies than truth. He may have said, probably did. However, put your self in his shoes. He has been hit with a barrage of very personal insults and chants from the crowd. Chants that WWF probably wouldn't allow. In the last game people are throwing stuff at you and people of all ages flipping the bird at you like it was a common place thing. Can you honestly say that you would be able to take that without saying something? I know I can't, I don't think you could and I think probably a third of the people in America would have went off and ran into the crowd and attack somebody. Don't say he gets paid to take that abuse. Yes, he does but only so much.


Most people in Vancouver probably have similar feelings towards yours. If I was a Grizzly fan I would probably be saying the same thing. I used to think Charles Barkley was classless based on a few instances but when you hear him on an everyday basis and see how much he actually gives back to the community you opinion changes of him. Unfortunately most people didn't see that side of him. Think of it this way. When the Vancouver fans were throwing stuff at Stevie during the first game up there it was classless. However you cannot say the Vancouver crowd is clasless based on a few bad people. Similarly you cannot judge Steve based on the very few instances you gave. A couple of moments of bad judgement does not really begin to signify whether a person has class or not.

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[This message has been edited by RocketSiv (edited June 01, 2000).]

 

VD--Hey, I can like you.
I've liked other Vancouver fans. Read this last final one, it's painless.

Don't base your points on dictionary definitions. Definitions are not good for undertstanding people. They are tools for expression only. You are not trying to understand a young man. You are trying to expression yourself ONLY. That's what this whole thread is about, and that's why you are repeating yourself.

Really, all I'm after is you to show some personality in this bbs before you start preaching. What you are trying to accomplish just doesn't work in this social arena. We all want to talk. But man, you are not talking. And you are not listening.

You've rolled yourself into the sandbox of a dictionary definition and will not play unless we step into that.

These threads go no where. No body had any fun here (except me), and you didn't really make any lasting acquaintances. Talk and then listen man. Unless you are just try to rile us up, then try to have fun and make some of us laugh.

This is life in here. Use it.

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 01, 2000).]

 

Vancouver_Dude, do you always go where your not wanted and where your opinions are not appreciated? Like..what's your point? Do you actually think that 99% of the people around here haven't already had this inane argument over & over with streams of clueless Vancouver fans such as yourself? Do you realize that your just appearing to be another tired*ss troll with nothing better to do than waste your time trying to push your weak and stale opinions onto a bunch of loyal Rockets fans?
Get this through your pointy little skull....I for one(and I don't think I'm alone here) don't give a rats *ss what you or any of your fellow grizz fans think about Steve anymore. It's a moot point. You guys have been beating that dead horse so long, there's nothing left but dust. Now....go home little boy, I hear your momma calling.

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I think we're all too focused on defending Steve to notice some very alarming comments VD has made which causes me to think that we may be dealing with a mentally unbalanced individual.

(Stockton) just plays within the rules

Somebody help the boy.


<FONT SIZE=-1>Stockton has 3355 career regular season personal fouls with 32 disqualifications, 3 his rookie season in only 18.2 mpg.

By way of comparison, Francis had 2 disqualifications last year in 36.1 mpg.
</FONT>


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The dictionary?? This is basketball dude not college Lit . Oh yeah but it might come in handy for the word Im going to look up "Loser"

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Proud owner of 271 different Hakeem Olajuwon Basketball cards

 

Ha ha. That's what Vancouver thought.

 

Dude,

Francis went to college.

Heypartner is classless.

Rimbaud is clueless.

GO ROCKETS!

RAH RAH RAH!

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I have a special purpose.

 

Vancouver Dude I never said you were a liar. I simply said provide a link. On instance 2 I didn't say I can't comment I just said that I could not defend him on that. On satring at the refs I can say that I have been following the Portland series and Wallace did get a technical based solely on his rep as a hot head. Not only have I followed the Portland series but I have followed the NBA for many years and players stay at the refs all the time it is really a pretty common occurence. Also I know there quiet players but it does not mean they don't talk trash. I have seen it. So what if they are quiet. If you re-read my post I said that you can't believe everything you read but I did say STEVE PROBABLY DID SAY THAT. I don't know if I inserted something in and messed up what I was saying but I thought it was clear that what I was saying that the Vancouver crowd was saying and doing stuff the WWF wouldn't allow. Very classless things but note I did go on to say that Vancouver was not classless. I do have a question for you though. Do you think that Steve does not like Vancouver? He raved about Vancouver. He said he din't want to play the 2 guard. I think that is part true but I also don't think he wanted to play for the Vancouver franchise. Just curious from the point of view of a Grizzly fan.

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My Granny from east Texas used to have a saying. If you can just get those kids over "fools' hill", they'll turn out alright. I think Steve made it a long way up this year. He'll be alright.

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I guess John Elway doesn't have class either because he did the same thing that Steve did. He made is 100% crystal clear that he would not play for Vancouver. They had 2 choices - 1. Not draft Francis or 2. Draft Francis and trade him. It was Vancouvers decision and they had to live by it. The Grizzlies knew the outcome before the draft. Steve is not to blame here. How can you blame a person for being upset when the outcome was known by all parties involved?? You can't.

Also, this is not an arguement of whether Steve could play shooting guard or not. Of course he can, but he would be best utilized at the point and he and every team, except obviously for the Grizzlies, knew that. Name any really successful teams with a small shooting guard. None. IMO, Iverson isn't a true shooting guard because he still handles the ball alot. He plays the SG role much like MJ did early in his career when Ron Harper was on the Bulls.

Did you even see the game where Steve committed the "flagrant" foul on Nowitzki or Abdul-Wahad?? I'm willing to bet you did not. The foul on Dirk was a foul. He pulled him to the ground by his jersey, kind of like he was trying to break his fall and Dirk came down with. As for the Wahad incident, Tariq was block and blocked hard. The collision afterwards is where the foul came. Tariq even said it didn't seem intentional. Sometimes flagrants are called because of really physical play and not because there was an intent to harm.
Post game comments about the Jazz?? SO WHAT! They are a cheap-shot team! Are you denying they are??

Staring down refs?? Name one player that doesn't!

Blah, blah, blah. The rest of your "points" are pathetic, reaching attempts at discrediting Steve.

As for Francis' F-ing comments to the Vancouver fans in the second visit up north, let me refresh your memory as to what transpired before that. Immediately from the start of the game, the fans in Vancouver proceeded with a "FRANCIS SUCKS!" chant. They did not boo like a normal crowd would for a player they didn't like. They decided to act juvenile and classless just like they did in the first Vancouver meeting.

MJ is only classy because that is what the NBA manufactured him to be. He talks more trash to his oppenents, about his teammates and is one of the cockiest people you'd ever meet. Last time I checked being conceded was not a classy trait. Being humble is.

"He barely comes into my train of thought unless Vancouver plays Houston or whatever."

Really? Then why are you bringing this up over a month after the season ended and about 3 weeks out from the draft? Apparently it bothers you more than you let on. LET IT GO....you'll feel better in the end.

At least we can agree on what a piece of living trash Scottie Pippen is!!

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We need some meat in the post!