I think it's different. I think there are scientific theories of how the universe was created, but I'm not sure Hawking's explanation here is one.
I just want to reiterate, you don't mathematically prove scientific theories. Math is the language used to describe the theories, but you build support for a scientific theory through empirical evidence. And while its possible to gather overwhelming evidence, you can never prove something empirically. I think what Hawking is doing is explaining how it could be that the universe came about without a Creator. He's describing the theory, or perhaps we should call it a hypothesis (I don't know how well developed his particular ideas are). I don't think he's claiming to know how the universe was created.
Well thank you for the kind words. I always appreciate talking with someone who is knowledgeable and who doesn't resort to personal attacks and what not, so this has been fun. And I am sorry if I gave the impression that I was trying to use the Kalam as a scientific theory. I was trying to use it in a purely philosophical way, using the science of the Big Bang to try to back it up. I don't believe science can either prove or disprove God, but I was trying to show that believing in God isn't the irrational thing that many people make it out to be. Some of us have actually wrestled with the issue and don't just take it on "blind faith." Thanks for the discussion
an invisible omnipotent being whom you believe in simply because you've been told to based on a book that was written, edited, and manipulated by men over several thousands of years and whose entire premise is essentially lifted from a conglomeration of earlier belief systems?
The Bible supports an intuition / understanding from deep within my soul that I have felt since childhood. Much of my Biblical education came from being self-taught, i.e., I read and studied it for myself. My maternal grandfather taught me to question everything and form my own conclusions.
So what kind of questions did you ask yourself that the bible answered? And...you did question everything right?
Answering those questions are a bit too personal for my tastes. Know that I did and I'm comfortable with my conclusions.
Do you by chance have any proof of anything you just said other than the fact that it was written by men? Which parts were edited? And exactly what belief system was copied? I have heard of theories and I believe that some make sense but I don't believe there is any conclusive proof for any of them. And I love how you just assume that this man couldn't have actually researched the subject and came to that conclusion. As amazing as it might sound, there are actually people out there who look into the thing that they believe and legitimately know why they believe it. I started to believe in God because of how I was raised. As I grow up, I continue to believe in God because I believe that there are legitimate reasons that He could exist, and the Bible, despite some of it's supposed short comings, is a book that makes life make sense to me.
You may not need forgiveness, you are surely good. I am not good and I do need forgiveness. God created man in the beginning and procreation has produced the rest. Sin is a heart matter, selfish motivation result in sinful choices, loving motivation results in unselfish right choices toward God and ever other person on earth. There are no crappy human's- Jesus suffered greatly because that is true. Only a loving God could act in perfect justice towards evil, and judgment is the wise ultimate retribution for evil. No one goes to 'hell' for good, judgment is impartial, true, and only for those who in their own self righteousness vehemntly reject God's love to favor their own selfishness. Nothing anyone does 'get's them in' I wouldn't worship your concept of God, I would detest a God that fits your description. I feel certain you have been exposed to the worse of hypocrisy and religion and you have very little point of reference for the true supernatural love from a real Jesus. I admire your boldness, but your anger comes across in your posts.
Who is judged more harshly in the afterlife? The person who lives a life of sin and selfishness, but repents on his deathbed. Or the person who lives a largely virtuous life, but does not beg for forgiveness from a God he has no belief in?
rhester, do you believe that anyone and everyone who does not accept jesus christ as their lord and savior spend eternity in hell? the more i have thought this over, the more it offends me. why would a loving God punish people for "sinning" - for simply being human? why did he need to come to earth and die...why couldn't he just see that HIS creation wasn't perfect, that there were certain circumstances present that made it tough for people to accept this "truth," and just let it slide? I just don't see the "love" and "perfect justice"...i see a world where a lot of awesome stuff happens, but also a lot of ****ty stuff happens. you do your best to do no harm to other people, animals, and the environment. why is a God needed for that. I am sorry if i come across angry or bitter, but i am. i think of how many times i've hurt someone or made them feel less human because i thought i was doing right in the eyes of God. there are many loving people like you and madmax who i admire for your love for other people...and i also know vehement atheists who also donate their time, money, and love to those less fortunate than themselves. religion - including jesus, IMO, is not what makes people ultimately "good."
some people need an impetus or a reason to drive them to do things, others don't if religion gets people to do good deeds and help others, then good for them what I don't get is the pissing wars and using religion to try to rule over others and trivialize their beliefs
Could it be that my "intellectual dishonesty" stems directly from the fact that I rarely, if ever, agree with you? It's a pity that your intellect is "closed for business."
I couldn't agree more with you, I see a painfully harsh world full of suffering. You have touched my own heart with that post (tears included but that is a problem I have) I know Jesus, and with a broken heart I try to extend the love he gives me to others. judgment of evil and wickedness is sad but I understand, I think your cry for what is truly right and loving is justified, I would love to know you better, to me you reflect as significant part of that 'image' of Jesus as I do. and yes I have been forgiven, without deserving or fully appreciating it I saw a little girl in Montgomery Co. last night on the news (something I watch about twice a year) she had brain cancer, and I wept watching the show... I asure you Jesus is going to make every wrong thing in this world right some day. as far as who's in and out.... I never think in those terms, those who sin against God and man have someone who took nails and beatings to say, Father forgive them... that is what I know, it is my reality.
I personally believe the harshest judgment will come to the hypocrite, the ones who speak glowingly of God but have no compassion, love or truth
your humility is astounding. i do not ascribe to your beliefs but i truly appreciate your candor. i don't know who i'll be in 5, 10, 20 years...but if i ever give the concept of god another chance, it will be because of someone like you. so thanks.
I am quite sure we can love one another and get along quite well. I would never try to change you. Thank God, not me, believe what you will, but I feel so strongly His perfect unfailing love for you... I hope I meet you at a Rocket game or somewhere, it would be a blast
You rarely, if ever, agree with almost everyone on the board these days. It seems, in my eyes anyways, your need for attention has turned you into an antagonist for the sake of antagonizing. That's just my opinion though...I guess you had to do something considering the whole 'thumbs up, thumbs down' schtick you started out doing with that 'creative' moniker didn't pan out for ya. "Thumbs down, Thumbs...." Pity, I bet a lot of thought went into that, eh?
