Instead of looking at it like, why does God punish good sinners by forcing them to go to Hell, why not look at it like why would a perfect God of love and justice be willing to save someone as sinful, evil and twisted as myself. People choose to go to Hell. God doesn't force anyone to go there. If anything, I think God wants people to seek after Him, wants people to desperately know that He loves them. People that ultimately go to Hell, go there because they want to be in a place where God is not present. If all your life you didnt want to believe in God, don't you think you should go to a place where He is not present. What if on your death bed, you realize that God is real, and that you desperately want to be with Him. Do you think you will still be going to Hell? I suffer as well in thinking about the fairness of God's decisions and plans for my life. Sometimes I plead desperately and hope that there is another way, my way, that is better and makes the situation better for me (and for others). But aren't I wicked fella? Don't I cheat to get ahead in society, or don't I wish (if even sparingly) ill-will upon those that offend and hurt me, or don't I curse at God and lie (even if they are white lies) to others? I could go on and on about the wrongs I have committed, and the hurts that I placed upon my fellow man. So I ask you wouldn't it be better than instead of relying on myself for the best made plans to save the world or to make the world most fairest, that I rely on His decisions and His plans. Whom better to trust my life and my choices than to the perfect God of all creation that loves me?
If you're sure that Jesus is going to make everything right, why do you still cry at stories like this? The girl will die and spend eternity in heaven. If her friends and relatives are good people, they will do the same. So there should be no reason to cry for her or for her family. They'll have their peace. The pain that they experience in life is so short lived compared to eternity.
Just because someone does not believe in God because they don't see any solid evidence does not mean that he or she hates God and wouldn't want to be with God if God existed. Your argument makes sense for a person who believes in God and purposely chooses to turn his back. It does not make sense for a person who says "I don't see any evidence that there is a God and until I do, I'm unconvinced." Also, I find your choice of the phrase "didn't want to believe" odd. People don't get to make conscious choices about what they do or do not believe. That's not how actual belief works. If you actively decide to "believe" in God, that's not real belief, that's paying lip service.
Blindly agreeing with everybody on everything to be popular is for sheep. As far my moniker, I was having fun with it but, like any repetitious joke, it became annoying. Therefore, I acceded to my peers regarding the "thumbs" schtick because they made sense. BTW, rhester, thumbs up! I wish I were a better person who could always turn the other cheek rather than allowing my temper to be an eye for an eye kind of guy.
Are you saying that if I know someone's going to be in Heaven that I shouldn't feel any sadness about any pain they go through before they get there? Why shouldn't I?
no kidding. i desperately wanted to believe in god. that's why i clung to it for so long, and it's what made my de-conversion so difficult, and it's why i struggle with depression and guilt over how my family feels about me. it's easy to say, "believe in god because he loves you!!!" well, no...i don't believe in the supernatural in the first place, so the reason is completely irrelevant to me.
I believe the truth is. If you choose to seek after God, then you find Him. But even if you do not seek after Him, He will always be on the outside your door waiting for you to open it and invite Him. I understand that you do not yet have the evidence that you need to believe in Him (or not). But I hope that you will not give up trying to find that evidence. I believe that if you search for Him, then you will find Him. But I'm not sure if you'll like what you find though.
Do you mind if I asked you why you decided to de-convert? Would you say it just built up over a period of time or there was something you can contribute it mainly to?
You are a free thinker baby. Destined to roam this Earth wondering WTF? no answers no conclusions no peace of mind no delusions
That is one of my favorite verses in the Bible. I love how it shows Jesus' human side, and the fact that when bad things happen, God isn't sitting in some far off place not caring, but is right there with us, caring more deeply than we can know.
You have searched for and apparently are still seeking answers only you can resolve. Put aside logic, intellect, reason et al and listen to your own heart. IMO, that's when God speaks to us and gives us answers. For example, I once questioned the concept of one God, considering there is Biblical mention of the Christ, the devil and angels on both sides. Then it suddenly dawned on me that God has many faces -- He is IMO the Christ, the Holy Ghost and the angels -- just as I am a father, brother, son, uncle, friend, enemy, leader, follower, etc. As far as the devil and his minions, I have met him too -- and he are us, i.e., all of our shortcomings. Personally, I know I should be out spreading the Word, but I generally keep my beliefs to myself and let others come to their own conclusions. I help where I can, but I never have believed that I have enough grasp of the subject to tell others what they should believe or not believe. The only course of action I can recommend is to listen carefully to your heart and your soul will be okay.
growing up i was a very zealous christian, but i definitely overcompensated for the nagging doubts in the back of my head...every sunday they would ask us "if you died in 5 minutes, are you sure you would go to heaven?" i always answered affirmatively, but never was actually 100% sure. i must have said the sinner's prayer thousands of times (and meant it best to my ability every single time). i was immersed in christian culture...only listened to christian music, only had christian friends, went to countless worship services, camps, and retreats, even taught bible study, and felt the "power of God." at the end of high school i had a few friends (christians) who challenged my extreme conservative political beliefs. i thought about it more, read about political issues (i had never bothered to figure out why i believed what i did) and began to see that i was wrong, that i was not supporting a compassionate belief system. the more i learned about the world and people and philosophy, the more those doubts kept creeping up. i was devastated when i was 19 and my best friend told me, out of nowhere, that she had become an atheist. i mean, we had spent years together at church camp, praying together, etc. i spent two years doing my best to ignore her and the materials that had challenged her beliefs. i desperately feared authors, films, anything that denied the existence of god...so much so that it kept me awake at night. i got really into progressive christianity and tried to surround myself with like-minded people. then early last year my sister told me that she didn't think she believed in a personal god anymore. it hit me like a punch in the gut, but at that moment i surprised myself by telling her that i didn't believe in it either. i had never once admitted it to myself, let alone anyone else. my sister and i spent countless tearful hours on the phone talking about it, how hard it was going to be...our entire childhood belief system just...gone. things happened really fast. it was if i had been a rubber band, pulled back and stretched for YEARS, and at that instant i had finally let go of god. i feverishly read hitchens, dawkins, harris, david mills etc. and it was like food for a completely malnourished soul. it outlined every problem i ever had with religion with such astounding clarity. i felt so much less alone. then i began to learn about biology, evolution...everything i was so afraid of learning about before. everything made SO much sense, it was all so beautiful. i felt like i could pursue any topic and indulge any intellectual whim i had, because who i was innately didn't conflict with it anymore. everything i knew about the universe...god just didn't fit in anywhere. my mind feels so free now, but there is tremendous guilt because of it. my sister and i have tested the waters regarding telling our parents, but they flip out and scream and cry over any little indication that we're not christians anymore. so we lie, and lie constantly, and i deal with having to lie about what church i go to, or my dad will call me constantly and tell me about how much of a horrible person i am and how he prays for me morning noon and night. all i want to do is tell them the truth without wavering, but it would only cause extreme tension, horrible drawn out arguments, and even more feelings of guilt and depression. i have friends who have come out of religion and experience a lot of the same nervous disorders i do (anxiety, worrying constantly, futile approval seeking, pulling out hair, biting the inside of my mouth compulsively). i do think it's tied to it. thumbs: i "put aside reason and intellect" for far too long. it made me feel hollow and a faker, even while "feeling" god move in my heart when i raised my hands during worship. i LOVE learning, i love reading, i love science, i love philosophy, and those things just confirm my decision more and more as time goes by.
I believe in God but can't answer the following questions... 1) Why would God give us the ability to reason and use intellect/logic only to let it lead to doubt? 2) Why would God not give absolute proof that he/she/it exists? 3) Why would God let humans fight amongst one another in his/her/its name? What was the purpose of allowing more than one religion to develop? I'm not looking for what the Bible or the Quran says. I just wanna hear free thinking.
I too love intellectual pursuits and learning about anything and everything (MENSA qualified but not interested in registering). That is not what I am trying to communicate when I say "put aside reason and intellect." In this regard, your heart will give you answers where the most acute, logical thought process cannot. If you do that honestly, IMO God will love you regardless. (Think of it as Obiwan Kenobe advising Luke Skywalker on his Star Wars bombing run to quit relying on his computer -- his head -- and listen to the force -- his heart.)
I'll save you a lot of time and trouble. No matter what answers you get from a believer, eventually they'll all boil down to: "God works in mysterious ways. We don't know why, we just have to believe." Which is the same as no answer at all.
finalsbound, First off, thanks for sharing. It couldn't have been very easy to analyze your life, the struggles and sadnesses you've faced and shared like you did. I see a person that really cares about his family, their well-being, and a very sincere heart-filled attempt at finding the truth (and an explanation for the reasons and causes of things). I also see a person that is in pain from carrying the heavy burden of not being able to share with his parents. I know this I am not really any qualified person to give any advice, but would you at least be willing to consider sharing this burden that you are weighing with your family. Being a person that really cares about his family, I'm sure they would want to know your thoughts and your feelings. I also would hope to appeal to you in this. Since you have found all the logical answers to your doubts and freedoms in your mind, have you found peace?
