Starting point guards for other Western Conf contenders

The distance between Houston and NBA Championship is that game in Utah where JHoward the-consummate-professional won the meaningless game for the Rockets, which costs them Roy.

 

In my opinion, this is really no different than the Chucky Brown situation brought up earlier. At this time in the NBA, there are a lot of good solid PGs in the West. (Lumping Devin Harris and Derek Fisher in with this group is definitely stretching the limitations but that is for another thread.) At the time when Chucky Brown was starting at the 4 for the Rockets the West was dominated by:

Seattle (Shawn Kemp)
Utah (Karl Malone)
Phoenix (Charles Barkley)
and San Antonio (Dennis Rodman...although not a dominator, very good/borderline HOF worthy player in my eyes)

No different than the situation out West today with PGs. Rockets will be ok, they are stacked at other positions lets check out the SGs for other contending teams:

Denver:JR Smith
Utah: Brewer
New Orleans:Mo Pete
Phoenix:Raja Bell
San Antonio:Finley
Dallas:Eddie Jones/Ager/Terry
Los Angeles:Kobe
Golden State:Jacko/Monta Ellis

Kobe out of this group is the only one on the same planet as TMac. I would say that there is not as big of a drop off between these players and Tracy as there is with the PGs and Rafer, but still, none of these guys sans Kobe can matchup with Mac.

This game is all about matchups, if RA can utilize the matchups that we hold the advantage in, we will win, that simple. Doesn't matter at what position they are, we simply have to maximize our advantages. See last years playoffs vs. Utah. Utah maximized the Yao on Boozer situation while the Rox were not as successful in exploiting Okur guarding Yao or TMac vs. their team. I would also say that Rafer held his own in the matchup with Deron thats why I refuse to blame the playoff loss on him.

If we had an upgrade over Rafer would we have won the series, yeah no doubt. If we would have had Scola instead of Juwon Howard would we have won the series, yeah no doubt. Mike James instead of Luther Head, for sure. Same thing with Yao not turning the ball over, or Tracy driving to the cup. We can win playoff series with Skip as our PG, and last time I checked thats all yo u have to do to win a 'ship.

 

Rafer will not cut it against this type of talent in the West. He will be eaten alive (like in last year's playoffs), which will expose the entire team and just lead to a never ending downward spiral of poor play as the Rockets scramble to compensate for Rafer's shortcomings of which there are many. Teams also have no incentive to guard Alston. Too many negatives with Rafer in the game and not enough positives to offset them (not even close). A change is long overdue.

 

Believe me, I am well aware of The Dreams capabilities and dominance. He is the reason I liked the Rockets and the day the Rockets did the sign and trade was one of the saddest days of my life because I realized he wasn't going to finish his career as only having played in a Rockets uniform.

But, your logics fails because yes, Hakeem was more dominant than Yao, but the level of competition for Yao is nowhere near that of Hakeem's. Therefore, we don't need Yao to become Hakeem, but just continue to improve like he has been doing. He just needs to get better on D, but again, you can't blame Yao for getting burned by a PG. He should not be at the top of the key defending PGs. He isn't that athletic to be doing that kind of stuff.

 

You can seriously say he was eaten alive? I must've watched a different series. Considering I was courtside for games 1 and 7 I dont know. Game one he played Deron to a draw more or less, both had pretty good games, near triple doubles if I remember correctly. Game 7 Rafers steals late in the game fueled the charge to get the lead, and he luckily banked in the 3 to give them the lead. Don't have the series numbers in front of me but if every other Rockets player would've handled their matchup the way Rafer did that was a 5 or 6 game series.

This is not to say that Rafer outplayed Deron by any means, its just the fact that coming into the series its expected that Deron outplays him significantly, it is one of the Jazz's strongpoints and the Rockets weakpoints. I feel that Rafer didn't get outplayed nearly as bad as talent alone would suggest he should. From a betting standpoint I would definetely say that Skip "covered the spread" in that matchup. JHo on the otherhand got it handed to him by Milsap as well as Luther by DFish. Would even say that for Yao, giving up 35 and getting 30 isn't what we need from one of our two stars.

Rockets had the talent to win that series but that is neither here nor there. The roster as is now can win a lot of games including those in the playoffs. Rosters have weak spots, this isn't Live where you can just draft or trade for great players at every spot. Rox are blessed to have 2 of the top 15 players in the league as well as some very solid role players. If skip plays up to his ability the Rockets will have have a very good chance against any team in the west.

 

Of course it was hyperbole. However, given the talent at the PG position amongst many teams in the West and Rafer's lack of talent, I do think it can happen.

I'll just reiterate what I've been saying all along. Rafer is a good ball handler and plays good team defense. He's a terrible shooter, but is always left open. His man doesn't worry too much about guarding him. His 1 on 1 defense is highly suspect. He doesn't penetrate and create for others, which is one of the things a PG is supposed to do - unless you count the floater that brings paint to everyone. He doesn't rebound well either. Most important of all, he has a tendency to get tight during crunch time. I think he's a mentally weak player that can't be counted on - especially during curcial moments in the game.

I just think in Steve Francis you have a better alternative, which is why I feel he should start and see the majority of the mins at the PG position.

I'm sorry I just don't share your optimistic view of Rafer Alston - too many liabilities and no real strengths.

 

kirk hinrich

hes a good % shooter and more importantly a good defender and right now his value is at an all time low, hes putting up bad stats and the bulls are losing, they need some changes

we could offer them rafer or james and 1 or 2 other people/picks to make the salaries work and pick up mike harris with the extra roster spot(s)

get er done

 

Boy am I tired of the constant complaining of our point guards.. Sure they're not the elite, but they're serviceable. If you're going to compare the PGs of Western Conference teams, you might as well compare SF and C as well. They don't have Tracy and Ming, and we don't have Nash or Deron.

 

STFU! rafer is better than all of em!
























maybe not

 

Do you guys think Tmac makes a great pg?

 

I think our assessment of Rafer isn't really that far apart. When I think of terrible shooter I think Eric Snow, Andre Miller, Rajon Rondo, don't think Skip is in that category. Good shooter, no way, but in reality I don't think Francis is a much better spot up shooter. He may not take the spot up shot but given those same looks, I don't think, and previous numbers indicate, he won't hit a higher % than Rafer does.

I do feel Stevie is a better player than Skip. If you were starting a team from scratch you would take Steve no doubt before Rafer. But as far as starting for this team I really feel that the Rockets are better off with Skip at the beginning of games. He's much more likely to get TMac and Yao going at the beginning which is what we need. I feel that no matter how much Francis sacrifices and changes, he's still looking to come off a screen at some point and fire a 20 ft. jumper.

As far as the majority of the minutes goes, I could see an even split working out well. The combo of Francis and James at the beginning of the 2nd qtr seems to do good things. Not really opposed to having Francis in down the stretch if his execution of the offense improves. Right now Rafer seems confident in calling the plays and getting the offense started, Stevie seems a little hesitant.

All in all, I see Francis getting more and more minutes as the year progresses, but never ultimately moving into the starting lineup. A compromise of our views to some degree

 

I don't think we'd be having this conversation except for 3 things:

1) We started the season 6-1, with wins over Utah, Laker and Spurs, so our expectations become high quickly, when they weren't realistic. I seriously expected we'd have plenty of problems implementing the new offense, new coaches, bringing Scola up to NBA speed, and having either Francis or AB replace Skip.
2) Francis started off as a dud, either out of shape or too old.
3) TMac getting injured.

Now, the bigger picture, IMHO, is that Houston's scouting has sucked for a long time, causing bad drafting. Morey is an upgrade trading. But, we still should have drafted differently. Brooks has turned out to be a potential gem, because Adelman had his eye on him. But, we should have moved up, and snagged Williams, Belinelli, Crittenton, Cook or Fernandez, then taken Glen Davis instead of Landry. Landry may turn out, be he doesn't seem to have much intelligence. Last year, we should have taken Gay. The year before, we should have taken Lee, the year before, we could have bought the draft pick from PHO and taken Deng, and on and on. I know about woulda, coulda, shoulda, but many of us were dying for the Rockets to do just these things, but Less wouldn't spend the money or empower JVG, because he didn't like him ... or so it seems. Imagine our team right now with Deng, Lee, Gay, Davis, and Crittenton. What a difference. We traded draft pics to get out of salary dumps, like Rice, or for marginal players. We've made up for it somewhat in decent trades, such as TMac and Francis, and now Scola, but the only good draft pick we've made in 15 years is Yao. And, even in that situation, we had a chance to move up to get Stoudamire also, as many of us wanted, and we didn't. So, until we solve this problem, as excellent as some of our trades have turned out, we'll never get to the top or stay there, until we learn how to draft like San Antonio and now Toronto.

As far as why we keep playing Rafer, I think we're trying to get him to play better, so we can trade him. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm hoping they're showcasing him ... he just isn't driving up his value.

A few we could trade for would be Sam Cassell and Jose Calderon. Either of those guys could really help us at PG this year, until Brooks get his groove on, but I doubt we have anything that Toronto wants for Calderon.

Perhaps Francis will quit wallowing in his 30 million, and get back to the gym rat he used to be, and give us enough firepower until Brooks comes alive.

... but, no matter what happens, I really never expected us to get up to speed until after the All-Star break, with all our changes. If they don't get rolling by then, maybe we'll see a couple trades to improve at PG.

 

A good point guard is suppose to elevate the level of players around him. He is also suppose to make it easier for his teammates to score. The problem with Rafer is not running the offense (mediocre but not horrible). The problem will always be his shooting (he's over 30 years old already, he's not going to shoot 40% all of a sudden). I always see Rafer's defenders give him all this space and camp themselves in front of Yao. RAFER CANNOT SHOOT and the worst part of it is all the NBA teams we'll play against knows it.

 

I don't have time to read every post in this thread but speed-read just about everything. IMO, it's pointless to superimpose the NBA game of 10-12 years ago over the game as it's played today. The NBA rules today far and away favor perimeter play. There will be naysayers but you don't have to look any further than Seattle hiding a zone to negate Dream.

And again IMHO, it's pointless to argue difference between C and PF. If they are in the low block, there is no difference.

The ONLY thing that is important to note is...all successful dominant Centers (or PF's if that was the primary low block option) had one thing in common. Russell, Chamberlain, Walton, Moses, Kareem, Dream, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Chris Webber in his prime...to name only a few...all had one thing in common. They were (for their position on the court) athletic and mobile.

Yao, as was Patrick Ewing before him, is not in this mold.

Yao is unique. But Yao is a totally vertical player. For this reason alone...all other positions on the court must compensate for Yao's lack of footspeed. Alston does not have enough of it when compared to his peers. Where this is painfully obvious is in transition.

My conclusion is that it's not about the positions of PG vs SG...or C vs PF...it's about balance of overall team speed in an era where the rules favor the offense and you have one of the slowest stars in the league.

Easy transition baskets are the key....it's the transition speed which differentiates today's elite teams. None of the Rockets' perimeter starters excel at transition. Alston just happens to be an easy "target" because it's usually the PG initiating transition tempo.

 

we have a solid PG, his name is SF. However, he just hasn't produce yet.

 

Not bashing, but this is true...hakeem was a one man wrecking crew in the paint on both ends.you couldn't front hakeem and expect to stop him,if he caught it under the rim he was dunking it,there was no such thing as playing him straight up, and if the ball hit him in his hands he caught it.these little bitty flaws will be the rockets downfall for as long as we have yao because we have to mask what he can't do.

 

Some of you are putting too much emphasis on one on one matchups. Sure we may be on the short end of the PG and power forward match up, but we should be on the winning side of the center and shooting guard match up in most cases. Tmac is also a much better passer than most opposing SG's which helps.

If Francis beats out Rafer then great. If he doesn't, then I don't know what you guys expect the Rockets to do. You aren't going to be able to trade Rafer for a better PG. You might be able to "get rid of him", but if he is your best option then I don't know how that would help us.

 

Me thinks a certain SG and center C that used to play in LA would have something to say about that. I would take those Laker teams over any of those teams you listed above any day.

 

I would tend to think that there is no "championship formula" as the lakers won with SG-C (kobe-shaq), the Spurs won with C-PF (duncan-robinson 1999) and then with PF-casting group (duncan-surging parker and ginobili 2003) and then with SG-PF (ginobili-duncan 2005) and last year with PG-PF (and i will also say here that this parker-duncan combination is not a combination at all).

That said i think that the PF.PG combination Utah has is one of the most easy-to-use combinations of all of the above because the pick-n-roll is a powerful and repeatedly used weapon.

If Tracy starts using his pick and roll in consistent basis with scola that would enable the Rockets to play as SG-PF or C combination any day. (not with Hayes)

 

I have no doubt in my mind that as we move further in the season, Steve will eventually get the starter spot. He's playing great in his limited minutes, and I think he'll work his way into the starting lineup.

I also think that Steve can give us enough help to give us a strong chance against any of the elite teams in the West. We don't need an all-star pg, but we do need one that will keep the defense honest. Right now, they double Tracy and Yao, and Rafer can pretty much get a wide open 3 anytime he wants. Teams dare him to shoot the ball. Steve in that case would drive in and create something for his teammates, or finish strong at the rim. Rafer certainly doesn't do that. Only problem is to get Steve in the starting lineup.

I feel that when James and Bonzi become more consistent off the bench, we'll have more of a chance to see Steve start. We need production off the bench right now, and with Bonzi and James deciding to play good 1 out of ever 5 games, it's not going to cut it. We can't put all our best in the starting lineup and let our bench suffer with Rafer, James, Bonzi, and Hayes. Yes Hayes will eventually be on the bench as well. That is inevitable. Scola is just too good, but he also comes off the bench right now because he's getting used to the NBA, and because we need someone consistent off the bench. So I wait for the day that Bonzi and James realize that they can't be playing like scrubs 4 out of 5 times. If they can be trusted off the bench every game, our starting lineup should eventually become:

Francis
T-Mac
Battier
Scola
Yao


That lineup right there with enough time to gell can contend with any team in the NBA in a 7 game series. Even with their elite pg's and all.