Basic hope that Novak- what? Again we HOPE that Novak would do ____ whatever for this team. The same exact way that we HOPED Battier or Stromile would be better than Howard. At least there was some of those ol' stats 's numbers that you could guess who might have been an option to stick in at power forward. Where's Novak's body of work to suggest he's an answer? As though Novak is a typical power forward himself.
Maybe next offseason after the Rockets make it to the WCF, Dawson will feel compelled to sign a decent PF for us. I sense another mini overhaul next offseason since Mutombo will HOPEFULLY be out. That would leave us with 2 glaring holes.. PF and C. By next season, I expect Hayes to be playing off the bench where he truly belongs.
As poorly as Hayes played on the offensive end, the Rockets as a team still managed to outscore the Hornets while he was on the court. And Hayes did a lot of good things in the +9 stint to help the team. That's three games in a row, btw, that Hayes has had a positive +/-. Maybe it's a fluke, but that's what he was known for last year, and no one else on the team this season has had a positive +/- in each game. Juwan's, in particular, has been negative in his two brief appearances. Code: Chuck Hayes Juwan Howard Stint +/- Stint +/- ------------ ------------ 0-0 -4 13-17 13-17 -2 39-45 39-45 0 42-48 42-48 +9 65-62 68-68 -1 68-69 68-69 0 70-71 78-85 -1 80-88 90-94 -1 90-95 Total +2 Total -2
Here's the MAJOR problem with this line of reasoning, by playing Hayes you basically FORCE more defensive pressure onto Yao, and eliminate someone who can score on the perimeter, you then also force Yao to be a bit more timind on D because Hayes is a foul machine, in addition to this T-Mac gets loaded up on more when he tries to get into his sets. IF Hayes is going to play with players like Yao and T-Mac then he needs to be an absolute MONSTER on D and rebounding. Just being a positive on the floor isn't enough because is GREATLY negatively affecting Yao and T-Mac and IF you actually consider THAT guess what? He's a great big MINUS. Now look Rodman was HORRIBLE on offense, Mutombo wasn't so good either BUT they were DOMINANT on D and the boards so they actually created offense. Yes dominating the boards and D creates offense, Hayes is just making it too hard for Yao and T-Mac. It's the exact oppostie problem that Padgett brings, he can rebound and shoot but he can't guard worth a shiet.
Novak is a skilled basketball player and extremely sound from a fundamental persoective. He's athletic and he's got a high basketball IQ. I know he's listed at 6-10 but the listing isn't updated, check the measurment and he's actually 6-9. Supposedly he comes in now at about 6-9 235, which is smilar to T-Mac or Battier size. So he's probablt too undersized and too much of a pushover to ever really handle the defense in the WC at that position. So when I say Hope that Novak I am basically saying hope that Novak can get it done their through hard work and strength training. Dirk is bigger but he was absolutely awful on D for awhile and got better just by effort. If Novak could just become somewhat adequate on D he would be a monster as the PF on this team. With the current roster the only other player who even has a shot at PF is T-Mac, I don't see the logic in playing Wells there. Wells is only worth a damn because over matches SG's and some SF's, put him at PF and now he's overmatched, it would be completely assinine. So that's how sad the PF spot still is. Howard is old and a backup Novak isn't ready to start and is a backup Hayes isn't really ready to start and is a backup Padgett is a backup Battier should not play there and Wells never should unless it's like against the Suns or something. T-Mac is the only player that is probably capable of being a good starting PF and his back would probably last a whole 3 games if he was put there.
You say this ... and yet both Yao and McGrady actually had better numbers last year when Hayes was on the court. What do you mean by Yao being more timid on D because Hayes fouls a lot? You mean because Hayes racks up a lot of team fouls? I really don't think Yao is worried about the team fouls ... his concern is the personal fouls. Ultimately, if he's going to play with them, then the team as a whole needs to play better than if we used another player in that slot. Does that mean he has to be dominant defensively and on the boards? Maybe/maybe not. It depends on how effective the alternatives are. Wait ... I'm not following the logic here. Since when is outscoring the opposing team not enough? Are you saying that Yao and Tracy's individual performance is more important? I don't get it. Last season, believe it or not, Hayes rated as one of the very best rebounders and defenders in the league. That's why I've been so high on him. That's why the coaching staff and the Rockets management have been high on him. So ... what's the alternative? You don't like Battier, Hayes, or Padgett in there at PF. That leaves Juwan or Novak. Novak is an even worse defender and certainly a worse rebounder than Padgett. Does he shoot well enough to justify putting him in there? And then there's Juwan. We know very well what he'll bring.
durvasa GET OVER the geek boy stats, moneyball crap it's not accurate with someone like Hayes last year. Dude playing against 3rd string guys or backups or SF's or whatever and on a terrible team and now using THOSE "stats" which are actually all stats based on other facts on top of it and now this means what based on now? NOTHING he is NOT good enough to start at PF on this team unless the team is looking to battle for that 8 seed. I only hope to GOD that Morey isn't really running the team based on things like this. For pete's sake Yao was a NEGATIVE in moneyball stats his 3rd year why the *** wasn't that scrub traded?
That's the question. We don't know. The fact is, Hayes was very effective playing against opposing bench players last year. More so than any of our other reserves. Can that carry over against better competition? His individual numbers likely won't look as nice, but will he do enough of the "little things" to still help the team win? That's what appeared to happen against Dirk and the Mavs on Saturday. And he had his moments against the Hornets as well (third quarter). And stop calling it "geek boy stats." You clearly know very little about them, and it just makes you appear childish. Those "geek boy stats" are used by pretty much every team in the league, alright? You'd be hard pressed to find an NBA team that doesn't track +/- data, so you just sound ignorant when you keep going on and on about how it's worthless. I get it, you don't think Hayes is good enough to start. The question is ... who is?. I still haven't gotten an answer to that. If none of them are good enough to start, we have to start someone by default. Who will that be? No one who actually understands what these stats are saying would have concluded that Yao sucks. He was one of the most efficient players in the league his 3rd year. John Hollinger, one of the big "stat geeks", called him one of the most underrated players in the game after his third season. What moneyball stat are you talking about, anyways? I assume the "Roland Rating" which said the Rockets played better as a team (i.e. had a better point differential) when Yao wasn't on the floor compared to when he was. That doesn't mean Yao was a scrub, or that he wasn't one of the very best players in the game. And no one who undrestand what that stat means would draw such a conclusion. It means that Mutombo was an awesome reserve in his limited minutes and against (in general) the opposition's second unit. And that's good to know. Stop with the straw man arguments. I'm not saying that +/- stats or On/Off stats tells you everything and that they can be used without considering context. Most people look at PPG, RPG, etc. when analyzing the game. I look at other things as well which I think are also important, while recognizing there are many things that just aren't captured by the numbers very well.
Most of the people pimping Hayes are smart enough to realize that they don't know for sure how he'll play given more minutes. But given the choice of playing a promising young player which a limited amount of evidence says is very good, or a washed-up old player who is KNOWN to suck, which would you pick? You know, there hasn't even been enough evidence so far that Hayes sucks when playing as a starter. It's been THREE games. Just from watching these three games and ignoring everything else, you could draw the conclusion that T-Mac sucks. Give Hayes a decent amount of time before coming to the conclusion that he can't start. It's not like the team has a good PF who's not getting enough playing time.
Forget it, you base EVERYTHING on these stupid moneyball stats. The fact that you didn't even know Yao's moneyball stats were a negative his 3rd year settles it for me. AMAZING I know way more about the moneyball stats than you do, UNREAL. Forget it, no one can argue with you you have lost common sense by taking logic and numbers to an irrational extreme. "It is often said that the more educated people are, the more that they will use the power of statistics to move them." - International Society of Sociologists "I now, due to this election result, have a mandate for the country, which is now mandated by the people. Because I won by 4 million votes." - GW Bush
What moneyball stats would that be? I base my observations on what happens on the court. Sometimes that can be quantified, sometimes not. To say that I base everything on numbers is simply false. You like to lie a lot, don't you? Again, what moneyball stat are you talking about, if not the Roland Rating? Enlighten me. LOL, "taking logic to an irrational extreme". First time I've heard that phrase. I'm sorry I'm just so unbelievably logical. I'll try to work on that. You know what? It is hard to have an argument when one side refuses to answer the other, point for point. I've responded to all your points as best I could, but you haven't. That appears to be your pattern; make a statement, but refuse to directly answer the rebuttal. You're right, this is pretty much worthless.
I'm not sure anyone is really arging against this, I think the issue is that Hayes is somehow a benefit to the team and helping Yao and T-Mac. He may very well indeed and probably IS the best overall PF on the team, going from that to being a big help to Yao and T-Mac is really stretching it. If it wasn't for having Yao next to him he would be getting abused BADLY and he's just making it much harder on Yao and T-Mac than it should be. Granted, Alston could do better as well, but it's sad that the forum points out his shortcomings so quickly, while seemingly failing to mention that Hayes is by FAR the weak link in that starting lineup.
relax people, I think JVG is still feeling out his players and mix-match right now. JVG is just going to show players if they play hard they can be a starter like hayes with limited skill-set. it is a good motivation tool. For Hayes as a starting PF is just telling Howard that he sucks. as of now Hayes is a bit better than howard in the rebounding area and howard's offense is almost neck to neck with hayes. Hayes is so one deminsional right now. he is not a threat on offense. Hayes need to add more post game and range. I mean he blow up layups and easy basket. I don't think Hayes this season has what it takes to become a starter. starting Wells at PF is better than Hayes, both have height and weight issue with bigger PFs. someone said wells can't play PF, last night he did. NOK i think had 3 pg on the floor at times too. you can pretty much best any position you want, just a matter of how effective you would be.
I think Hayes is our best option for the other starter at this point. He plays hard, does well on the boards, and defense. He has missed some easy layups, but that is the kind of thing that will change as he gets acclomated, and gains composure, which will happen quicker as a starter.
I love it. Durvassa getting yet more abuse about his stats and his boy, Chucky. But to Durvassa's defense, I've mostly heard him say that Chuck was a better option than Juwan. ...not really that Chuck was an allstar PF. Regardless, Durvassa's point is not very compelling to me. That's like asking is a pile of poo better than a pile of garbage. This Chuck Hayes experiment is interesting. Hopefully the team will grow stronger. PREVIOUSLY, fixing our PF position was not a priority. At this point, our PG and SG problems appear to be addressed. Starting this seasin, our NEW #1 problem is addressing the PF spot.
This is a stop-gap solution until Bonzi is ready to start at the 2, Battier slides to the 4, T-Mac slides to the 3...
I'm glad you're enjoying it. You think Rockets Dynasty is making a compelling argument? ("geekboy moneyball stats SUCK! Morey doesn't no ****!!!") Here's the deal. As poorly as Chuck has played (I'm not blind; I realize he's been fairly abysmal on the offensive end so far this season), the starting lineup with him on the floor still has outscored the opposing starting lineup in both games. That in itself doesn't prove anything; it could be a fluke. But the pattern last year, and again early this season is that the Rockets as a team seem to do just fine with Chuck on the floor, despite all his deficiencies. But you can't put him out there without other scorers or the offensive will go down the drain. That's part of the reason why I like him in the starting lineup. He doesn't have to score a lot, and his defense and energy has helped us get off to pretty good starts.
Hayes is a good guy and has a great heart but is a liability when he is on the court . He is not capable of playing the starting Power Forward on a contending team. Poor selection by JVG and CD. He could do well in a lower league. I realize that JVG is only experimenting at the moment but it is very obvious that he and CD neglected to select players big enough and athletic enough to play the defensive and offensive game, for this position.
