For 4-5 years, B.J. Armstrong was a solid double-digit scorer...He was not just a very bad player. Grant was a 14, 8 player throught out his prime. He could run with some of the guards in the league. The Bull's Pippen was a great player, an all-star, and probably a hall of famer. I might question his top 50 best players of all time selecion, but he was still a very good player. And, in 1995, he still was one of the best players in the league.
NBA teams with the top five winning percentages - Nine all stars NBA teams with the bottom five winning percentages - One all star coincidence? So, let me ask you a quick question. Let's say you were an NBA coach...oh...about three years ago, and you had to choose between coaching the Lakers or coaching the Grizzlies. Which team would you choose to coach? Let me know how long it takes you to answer that question. If anything, that makes Jackson one of the smarter coaches in the league...I mean, unless you ENJOY going through a 3-5 year rebuilding process and losing games by 20 points every night...could Phil Jackson help it if he was a hot commodity and was being pursued by the Lakers, also? Look, the final word is that it's really hard to label coaches as "underrated" and "overrated", because the only thing you have to measure a coach's success is winning percentages and championships. You can't measure things like timely substitutions, allocating playing time, handling player injuries, handling player altercations, team motivations, making offensive and defensive adjustments during games, etc, which is what a good coach brings to a team...
Oh, for the record, I don't blame Phil for not taking the Grizzlies job ALTHOUGH the Lakers job was not available at the time the Grizzlies wanted him. Believe me, Larry Brown could have won 6 championships with that Bulls team in Jordan's prime and the 2 with the Lakers in Shaq and Kobe. Hell, man, he led the f*cking Clippers to a winning record and took them to the playoffs. He would have won some NBA championships by now, but the only good players he has ever coached have been Allen Iverson and Reggie Miller & although they are good, they are hardly in the class of Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe. Now, do you think that Phil could do that with the Clippers or the Pacers (who were floundering at the time that Brown took over) or the 76ers (same thing - floundering franchise)? Let me know how long it takes you to answer that question .
I don't know....COULD Phil Jackson have coached the Clippers to a winning record? Maybe, maybe not...It doesn't matter, because he was busy winning NBA titles in Chicago at the time... Could Wiley Coyete have caught that damn road runner by now if he had gone with a more respectable company for his products than ACME? Could I have gotten laid on prom night if I hadn't spilled punch on my date's dress? This isn't about what he COULD have done...It's about what he HAS done...Here's a quick list of what he has done... Career winning percentage of over .700 Eight NBA titles NBA coach of the year in 1996 Instead of holding the fact that he's had great talent to coach against him, try giving him some props for managing to keep all of those egos in check... And don't even try and bring Larry Brown into this...I never even mentioned Larry Brown. He's a great coach, but this has nothing to do with him....Nice try at a spin job, though... If you INSIST on bringing up Larry Brown, though, Allen Iverson MIGHT have a little to do with him getting to the NBA Finals last year, where he lost to.....wait....nah, I'll let you figure it out... Those Clippers teams he had weren't too Shabby, either...He had Ron Harper and Danny Manning both before their knees gave out. He did about as well as he could do with those teams, a couple of first round playoff exits... Now, when Phil Jackson DOES get the opportunity to coach a team with not a lot of talent, we can have this conversation, but until then, you're dismissed.
To be overrated, people must think you are good : PG - Stoudamire SG - Eddie Jones SF - Shareef Abdur-Rahim PF - Antonio Davis C - Mutombo. If it was so easy to win a title with Jordan and Shaq, how come Phil is the only one to have done so?
No, because he wouldn't have taken the Clippers job because they had no superstars just like he didn't take the Grizzlies job because of their lack of superstars. Could Wiley Coyete have caught that damn road runner by now if he had gone with a more respectable company for his products than ACME? Could I have gotten laid on prom night if I hadn't spilled punch on my date's dress? Who the f*ck cares?? The point of bringing Larry Brown into the mix was not for some freaking spin job but to show you and anyone else out there that you might be polluting their minds with this garbage of Phil Jackson being the greatest coach of all-time that here's a guy who can flat-out coach instead of relying on 2 of the greatest players in the game at that time to win for him. This isn't about what he COULD have done...It's about what he HAS done...Here's a quick list of what he has done... Career winning percentage of over .700 Eight NBA titles NBA coach of the year in 1996 Instead of holding the fact that he's had great talent to coach against him, try giving him some props for managing to keep all of those egos in check... Blah, blah, blah about winning percentage and NBA titles - having a high winning percentage and winning those titles, although impressive, are not because of Jackson's superiority and being a mastemind...it's because of Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe. When Michael Jordan wanted to win bad enough, I think a trained monkey could have won as their coach (okay that is exaggerating - but you get the point). And don't even try and bring Larry Brown into this...I never even mentioned Larry Brown. He's a great coach, but this has nothing to do with him....Nice try at a spin job, though... Yes, it does because he is an example of someone who goes to places that aren't winning, unlike your hero, PJ, and turns them around. He has just been unlucky in that he has not had the greatest players "playing" for him like Jackson has. If you INSIST on bringing up Larry Brown, though, Allen Iverson MIGHT have a little to do with him getting to the NBA Finals last year, where he lost to.....wait....nah, I'll let you figure it out... Not going to argue with the fact that Iverson led them to the finals, but Brown HAD a significant role in making Iverson a more complete player. Don't forget that it took Jordan awhile to win a championship...I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen to Iverson. Those Clippers teams he had weren't too Shabby, either...He had Ron Harper and Danny Manning both before their knees gave out. He did about as well as he could do with those teams, a couple of first round playoff exits... Are you kidding me?? Harper and Manning were decent players but hardly in Jordan's, Shaq's, and Kobe's class. I'm a little confused by why you bring that up... Now, when Phil Jackson DOES get the opportunity to coach a team with not a lot of talent, we can have this conversation, but until then, you're dismissed. But that's the problem, A-Train...Phil will never coach a team that doesn't have a superstar on the team. Let me repeat that for you again: Phil will never coach a team that doesn't have a superstar on the team. I think it bares repeating one last time: Phil will never coach a team that doesn't have a superstar on it. However, I appreciate the "dismissal".... You have now been "excused" from this discussion....buh-bye.
He got arrogant??? Can you tell me what he did that makes you say that? He busts his ass off, despite having shaky knees. BTW, those knees are why he has lost his effectiveness, not his "arrogance". If you knew anything about Grant as a person, you would know that he's anything but arrogant.
If someone finds a flaw in Phil Jackson, they can find a flaw in every other NBA coach in the history of the game. You don't win 8 titles by dumb luck. Yes, they had talent, so did the Rockets in mid to late 90s. Phil is a mastermind at getting his team prepared in important/big games. They hardly ever lose must-win games. They basically sacrafice the games against bad teams, and turn it on when it matters most. I'm still wondering what mistakes Phil has made. Sometimes a good coach isn't one who makes his players better, but one who doesn't hinder them. Ahem Rudy T.
I think Shaq said it best, "not everybody can coach talent. I don't think Shaq would've have called Phil J "my white father" if he didn't have impact on his career/life. The same for Jordan and his "I don't want to play with Phil" speech in '98. If you're going to call him overrated just because he always had talent on his teams, then I guess the same could be said for Red Auerbach or Pat Riley. But like it's been stated before, what coach thats won a championship hasn't had big talent on his team? Or if Phil is overrated why couldn't Jordan/ Pippen and Shaq/kobe get it together before him? Why were the lakers getting swept each year before phil got there? I'm no Phil Jackson fan, but to call the man overrated just because he's always have talent on his team is ludicrous.
Good point! But do you really believe the Lakers would not have won the last two championships if Phil wasn't there? Kobe just came into his own during that first championship run. Like I said, I'm not saying Phil is a bad coach. There is absolutely nothing to prove that. I just can't figure out what exactly makes him a good coach. Can someone please tell me why they think the Bulls or the Lakers wouldn't have had the same success without Phil? Until someone can tell me that or until he can bring success to a team that does not have the most talent in the NBA, all I can call him is a very fortunate coach.
The fact that he doesn't screw things up. Believe it or not, there are coaches who do too much and ruin things. Phil pushes the right buttons. What's funny is how everyone has respect for Joe Torre, who has more of a talent disparity, yet everyone doubts Phil. Also, can you tell me what the Bulls and Lakers did before Phil came aboard? MJ was a selfish loser before Phil put him in his place and basically told him that he will need to be more of a team player to win. Something that Doug Collins failed to do. Kobe and Shaq were the same before Phil came when Del Harris and Kurt Rambis commanded as much respect as Osama Bin Laden. If Phil weren't in LA, perhaps the Shaq and Kobe thing last year would have boiled over to the point where Kobe would have been traded for Kidd? You fail to look at the intangibles that Phil brings. I admit he probably is not an X's and O's guy. That is the last thing a team like the Lakers or Bulls, back in the day need. Great teams need a coach who is able to handle egos. Anyone who can win with Rodman and Pippen (2 inflated egos)is a great coach in my book. Look at how well Rudy handled Pippen and Olajuwon... Phil is able to get the players to do everything he says. Something 3/4th of the NBA coaches sorely lack.
Yep, the Yankees have starters at 40% of the positions that have been given consideration as the best player in the league.
Hmmm...that's strange. It looks like 88-89 season MJ averaged 8 assists per games, took 22 shots per game, and had a field goal percentage of 53%. The year Jackson took over in the 89-90 season MJ averaged 7 assist per game, took 24 shots per game, and had a FG% of 52%. How does that translate to him being more of a team player when Jackson took over? I don't buy that at all. But I will buy your assessment that Phil Jackson doesn't do anything (to screw things up).
I bet you will then tell me Marbury is a team player because he racks up assists, along with Cassell. You fail to see basketball 3-dimensionally. Stats, especially assists are very misleading. Jordan himself has said that he was very immature and didn't grasp the team concept until Phil came aboard and cracked the whip.
sorry kidrock, i shoudn't have sayd that gran was arrogant, i don't know him as a person. you are wright, but grant is overated, not by himself, but by the heat. he got a contract like he was a suerstar and a scorer, but he is just a hardworking roleplayer (i like him as a player, and would want him as a player in my team). about phil jackson. i didn't say he is a bad coach. but i sayd he is a OVERATED coach.he is a good coach, but not a great or one of the best ever. he has never proven himself with bad players. and i believe the bulls and the lakers would have been the champion with whoever as a coach, Jordan was just to good in his prime. and shaq and kobe are two of the best now. so i'm just saying i don't think phill is bad just not as good as a lot of peole say
Fair enough. But as always, I like to ask people who don't think Phil is the best coach, to tell me who they think the best coach in the NBA is right now. So... Who do you think is/are a better coach then Phil? I will puke if you tell me Larry "Zero titles" Brown. Also, you are assuming that the Kobe and Shaq would have matured with Phil. If you haven't noticed, Phil is the ultimate mastermind in getting the most out of his team. I will admit the Lakers do have the 2 best players in the league, however Phil must find ways to have role players who understand their roles and fulfill them. Something that 90% of the coaches in the league fail to do. The Lakers won in the playoffs not just because Shaq and Kobe, but because they had great defense from guys like Rick Fox, Fisher, and Horry. Not to mention 1 of those 3 seemed to score 20 pts a night, in addition to Shaq and Kobe. If coaching the Lakers were that easy, the Lakers probably would have hired some cheaper coach instead of Phil before the 99-00 season. There is a reason why MJ said he wanted to only play with Phil. There is a reason why the Lakers hired him to lead Shaq and Kobe.
Prepare to puke! I won't say Brown's a better coach, but I will say I am more impressed by what the 76ers managed to achieve last season than what the Lakers did. But there's no way to really prove anything about who is a better coach. The only way to prove it if Jackson and Brown switched coaching jobs at the beginning season and then we could compare how each team faired relative to last season. Brown has proven that he can make a non-contender into a contender, and Jackson has proven that he can win championships with the best talent in the league. Both are good accomplishments.
