StarCraft 2, the GOAT game, must get its own thread

there's 2 things to factor into a successful zergling rush

1) map size
2) choke/ramp size

if the map is small, prepare for a ling rush and build a barracks before a depot, if larger you should be ok with a barracks second. the trick to ling rushes is to not let them surround your miners, if you see/predict a ling rush is coming clog up your ramp with SCVs if wall is not finished and put your marine rally point behind the SCVs.

If you're dying to 3-4 lings something is really wrong.

 

lol. I don't even know where to start. Do you even know how APM is calculated? You seem to believe it's only clicks. With how easy blizzard has made SC2's hotkeying, it's easier than ever to have "high" peaks in the APM. EX: Select 12 WarpGates and throw down units one after another. They are not clicks, but that alone is a jump to 250APM-ish.

Don't think that because a player is in Diamond (maybe even ranked #1 in your division at the moment) means they're an "expert". So far, SC2 has been dominated by noobs who play more than others. Most of the best SC players are still playing the original SC. It's too much of a hassle to get into, so I won't. Experienced players from the SC universe know full-well that it requires 200+ APM to compete at an elite level -- something that I never could or cared enough to accomplish. To actually believe what you typed, you would be suggesting that it's a huge coincidence all these pro gamers in Korea are averaging 300 APM.

SC2 is still in its early stages with no major tournaments held yet. You have yet to see the "real" pros who actually belong to teams and play for a living play. SC1 is still huge so it will be some time (if ever) before a full transition is made over to SC2. WhiteRa and Idra are good, sure, but I doubt they will be mainstream Pros once the money tournaments begin.

I don't know how long you have been playing SC, but if you believe that 100+ APM is spam, then it mustn't be very long. I personally have been playing since 2002 (and I have never been an expert), but I've used BWChart for years and noticed a trend: most people that were better than me had APM 200+. My APM was around 140-160ish when I did play.

Have you heard of WCG? ICCUP? On ICCup, all the B- through A+ players have APM's over 250. ALL of them.

Of course high APM doesn't automatically mean Pro (there are obvious spammers that hold down hotkeys for APM jumps), but it's NOT a coincidence that Pros ALL have over 250+ APM. My APM on SC2 is 80-110ish and I'm playing on a laptop. Also, my hands aren't big enough to make full-use of my keypad. Even if they were big enough, I'm not skilled enough to press all these numbers and letters non stop.

Unfortunately, you'll just have to wait and see. I guarantee you once SC2 tourneys begin and the real pros come out of the woodwork, you WILL see 200+ APM and maybe you'll be able to see a cam version of their hand/mouse movement. There are videos available right now on Youtube for SC1 pros. Watch that and let me know if you think it's spam. These guys use both hands, ten fingers, and they do not look away from the screen.

 

What led you to believe that these are exclusive from one another? ALL players with APM over 200 will have macro skills equal to or better than yours, and they'll definitely be knowing what you're up to (at least they'll deduce it to a couple of strategies). Did you think, when you typed that, that if someone has higher APM than you, it means that they don't have your macro skills because they are too busy spamming?

I'm really curious about how long you've been playing SC and if you've ever played more than your casual Fastest Map/BGH. To actually suggest that 100+ APM is spam is ridiculous. Go make that post on Youtube and see how many people agree with you and then get back to me.

 

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221#blog


Actually Zerg is getting a heck of a buff. My 9 pool is going to be more effective against the toss player and Siege tanks are getting nerfed. We have something done to our ultralisks, but who uses ultralisks

 

i'm not sure what platinum, gold, silver, whatever are. i'm assuming its the rank classes. to be honest, i havent played much 1v1 online, i usually play with a friend or 2, so im not sure how i know what rank i am. i assume i would be in the worst rank or whatever.

 

This game sounds like a lot of fun. Like a learning to type program on steroids.

 

Yes, when I watch replays and check APM and a persons average is 300+ in the beginning and 100 at the end, I imagine that is from mostly spamming. I've watched plenty of replays in both my wins and losses where people get APM spikes yet nothing is happening on the map, aka useless spamming. The evidence in the replays is all I need.

To answer your second question I always hovered near the top in the old SC ladder before it became filled with win traders. I never said 100+ apm is ridiculous just unnecessary to be successful , but casual people you play on BNET (I am Diamond league in 1's and 2's atm) with 250+ apm are mostly spammers according to replays.

I still stand by what I said earlier, SC2 is a lot less APM intensive than SC1 with all the macroing updates so your info is probably outdated.

 

1) You're assuming that the APM of the players you happen to play with is what determines whether or not 250+ APM players are legit? I doubt that the main B.net for US users even have any qualified "experts". I know what you're saying -- one of my partners starts the game averaging 250APM for 10 minutes and then finishes at 110 while I start at 40 and finish at 115ish, but I just never took it to the level you did: assume that all players are like him.

2) The old SC ladder has always been a joke. The real players played on different servers. People just abused the ladder points by playing FFA with friends and then winning. In 2003, a bot by the name of C0ca-c0la had 4545 ladder points and was #1 for over two years. It was obviously a cheated stat. Not saying that you cheated but that most players were cheaters and those rankings meant nothing. Beating someone with 1900 ladder points and gaining 50 pts meant nothing.

I have to get to bed, and this argument is pointless.

Why don't you go post your statement on Youtube and tell me the responses that you receive. Post "Any APM over 100 is pointless clicking" on 20~ SC2 videos and let me know what people have to say.

Another method of proving your/my point: If either of the finalists of the upcoming SC2 tournament has APM lower than 200, I will come back and tell you that you are right. Heck, if any of the final 12 players have APM lower than 170, I'd be surprised. So, no, WhiteRa does not set in stone what APM is realistic/necessary and what isn't. And your APM/experience does not mean that anyone over 100+ APM is spamming, like your so boldly stated.

I don't want to get into your qualifiers: "casual players on b.net", so I won't.

APM is a huge part of SC/SC2. The best players will have over 100 APM, that's not something I have to guarantee -- that's a fact.

Once again, with the way the rankings are set up on Bnet right now, league/division rankings mean nothing. We know that the level of activity is what determines his/her ranking on B.net.

 

I'm just going to respond to each of your statements in the quote since it's easier than separating.

 

Lol, wow.

The problem is that you seem to believe what you do/see/experience/the players you play with set the standards for what is possible/"necessary" and what isn't. And if people disagree, they are "tweeners" and "spammers". Anything I'm wrong about? Believe it or not, there are millions of players/replays that you have not seen/played with. Just because you "witness" something does not make it a standard.

I wish I could live in your fantasy world, that with my 100APM, I am almost near the top of the SC2 world. Anything over that is "pointless clicking", like you claim.

I started to play BW in 2002, so I could only give my opinion of what happened during that time. I doubt you played in 1998, but if you did, I'm glad it was cheat-free and you were at the top of it, like you so vaguely said it was.

If anything over 100 APM is considered "straining" your fingers at a pain that you cannot endure, why bother playing at 100 APM at all? Why not drop your APM to 60? Players with 50 APM could argue, then, that you're doing more than "necessary" because you clicked twice instead of once.

The facts aren't on your side. 100 APM is not the standard and is not the definition of what is "necessary". You already know that Youtubers (some good players, some newbies) will not agree with it. You also already know that the winner of the tournament will have APM over 100 (I'd argue over 200). So what was your point again?

"Casual players on B.net should have 100APM or lower because that's what I have and I feel that it is what is necessary to play at the highest level. I am in Diamond league in 1v1 and 2v2, and that's proof. Anyone who disagrees or does anything else is a spamming tweener".

Come on, man. Just admit it -- you were wrong. The best players WILL have APM over 100. If you want to bet on it, we can. It's not really difficult to imagine someone playing at a faster speed.

Anyway, your original "point" was that anything over 100 is pointless clicking. In your world, then, all the winners of SC2/SC1 tournaments are spammers. What a coincidence. I'm sure they're fired up about what you think of them.

Show me the replays that you are talking about, where someone with "really low" APM beat someone with 330 APM, and then tell me how many occasions has something like this has happened. Then tell me how many times have the top players (players being paid to play) clocked 300 APM. Sit here and tell you what? It's almost a fact that anyone who plays with APM over 300 has just as much "Skill/strategy/knowledge" as someone with 150 APM.

FYI, I am also Diamond in 1v1 and 2v2, and I've only played 153 total league games.

We can agree to disagree, but the world disagrees with you. I'm sure you still think you're right, though. Even WhiteRa, who you claim to play at 125 APM (I haven't seen the APM so I can't comment on it) would not make a stupid claim that his APM is what is standard.

 

You: 300 APM < 100 APM with skills/strategy/knowledge

What exactly is going on in your mind? That the standard 300
APM player is clueless and does not know how to make a Zealot? This is your problem. You don't seem to understand or want to accept that highly active players are just as skilled/knowledgeable/strategic as their opponents. There's a reason that a when a low APM player beats a skilled, high APM player that it is widely publicized: it doesn't happen often. Can a player with 200 APM beat a player with 300 APM? Of course. But can a player with 80 APM beat a player with 300 APM? VERY HIGHLY unlikely. and keep in mind that "knowledge/skills" is not exclusive to the 80 APM player. You don't get that part.

Anyway, I'm done trying to make my point because I know that you're wrong and I'm sure you know that you're original claim is wrong/stupid. The fact is that there is a relationship between the best SC players and high APM. It's not pointless clicking like you believe.

When I get the chance, I'll definitely ask Youtube users (and commentators) what they think about APM over 100 on SC2. I'm very curious.

My prediction: The winner of the upcoming SC2 tournament will have APM over 200. Bold prediction? Coincidence. How will his fingers survive? Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

APM is necessary. Without it, you can't manage everything.

Yes, a lot of players do spam in the beginning to keep their average APM high (or lube their fingers up for action later?), but their in-action APM is what really counts. And they have it.

There are a lot of great players that don't have ridiculous APM (e.g., 200) such as WhiteRa who is consistently around 130 on average but still is one of the best players in the world. I think TheLittleOne is around 150, as well.

You'll be hard-pressed to find pro players with APM's around 100, though. I've never seen 'em. Anyway, the 130/150 number is an average over the entire match but it will always spike to 200-300+ during high action sequences for the best players. Some players just have lower averages because they don't do the initial spam, but rest assured, their average APM is still quite high anyway.

It's not the end-all be-all statistic in determining StarCraft 2 skill, however, and a requirement of a 200+ average is absolutely ludicrous. 200+ while skirmishing is plausible, but if you factor in dead times during the beginning, in a 20 minute game, 200+ will usually only be reached with some early spamming while workers build.

 

@TSchmal,

Like I said a page or two ago: SC2 seems to filter out spams in calculating APM, so I don't know exactly what a "real" pro-gamer will be able to clock, but I would imagine 200-ish. You, just like that other guy, are basing your "pro" averages on what WhiteRa and TLO can do (which is reasonable since they are all we have to watch on Youtube), but I would be EXTREMELY surprised if either of the two actually make the finals/quarter-finals in an SC2 tournament. Not saying that they won't or that they can't because their APM is 130/150, respectively, but there are going to be better players coming out of "nowhere" (Korea) once the money/opportunity/reputation is on the line.

It's absolutely not the end-all be-all stats, but it's a fact that the best players tend to have some of the highest APM's in the game.

SC2 is still fairly new, and I'm not sure about its status in Korea, so we'll just have to wait for tournament results. We won't know "pro-gamer" standards for Sc2 until we have Korean players' APMs come in. It's going to take some time, but based on what I can do and what I feel others can do, they should be around 200.

 

I haven't started on SC2, but I still play some SC1 and use to be a C/C- player on Iccup. I'm just wondering what race this WhiteRa player plays, since this guy is coming up alot. Because I know for a fact that generally in SC1, Protoss tend to have lower APMs then other two races. Bisu one of the top players in Korea (Protoss) had an APM of around 180. Other top Protoss players tend to also have lower APMs. I think it really was a product of race. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these top players with lower APMs tend to play Protoss. I'm not too sure why its the case and definitely not sure if it still applies to SC2. But just putting it out there. But yes anything above 100 APM does not constitute spam.

Also who played SC since 1998, SC was trash then, too many imbalances. Even when BW came out, it wasn't great until some other updates came out.

Anyways, trying to resist SC2 cause of school. Hopefully I get to try it soon.

 

Actually, WhiteRa won several tournaments in beta (that had money attached to them) and TLO always made it deep.

Another example of a "pro": IdrA. Dude plays in Korea on a pro Korean team. I just watched a few replays on his (http://www.sc2replayed.com/) and his APM usually averaged around 170. It was highest initially (250+) while he was spamming macro keys in the very beginning.

Go watch some replays. The clan "oGs" is a pro Korean clan if you want to check out their replays, too.

 

I've watched almost every single replay from BlizShouter (Youtube caster). I've seen most of those guys play, and I'm not convinced that they are the best out there.

I also wouldn't consider any BETA tournaments a measuring stick. I'm patient enough to wait. I really hope that Idra and WhiteRa can prove me wrong, but I doubt they win upcoming tournaments. No idea why, I just think there are going to be better/more creative players that will come out of nowhere.

Also, I've seen a few first-person videos on Youtube of pro-gamers playing (Bisu, Jaedong, Baby, etc.) and most of the time, they do spam at the beginning, but I don't think they do it for APM. It's more for a rhythm than anything else. They play even faster during battles.

In any case and despite the changes to measuring APM in SC2, I would be extremely surprised if the winner has APM less than 200. Like I've said, I play at 80-110 APM on a laptop and while I do spam, I still consider myself a newbie. Pro Gamers? I just expect a lot from them.

Any of the APM talk. We'll all disagree, but the facts are there .

 

My APM was higher in SC. My APM in SC2 hovers around 80-120, though during fights I can still get it 3-400. With all the improvements in SC2 interface, I just don't see a need to get it any higher.

BTW all this talk is pointless. Lets play. Someone message me, I'm always on. We can have a clutchfans tourney, with spectators. Everyone in the discussions about APM all seem pretty knowledgeable, it would be fun see how everyone plays.

Post your ID and lets get something going. I'll start.
Jsnow #307

 

haha i was just about to say this APM talk seems silly. from what i'm gathering some people spam it, others dont. but regardless, if you're good you're going to have a decent APM simply because you are building and microing and whatever. basically clicking and punching keys the entire game. that makes sense.

i'm down for playing, i suck, but hell it will be a learning experience. also will have the replays to look over.

 

it is ridiculous, but kaocsaephan's delusion that you need to have a higher APM than your opponent to win is even more ridiculous.

 

Let it go. You don't have to have a higher APM to win, but it certainly gives you an advantage.

I mean, all the APM in the world isn't going to help if you build mass Marines against a Zealot/Colossus mix.

But I think his argument is that at the top tiers, no one does stupid stuff like that, so APM is one of the primary differentiators in determining who wins a battle. My opinion is that's a max APM value that matters, not an average APM.