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Spurs improve defensive efficiency by focusing less on defensive rebounding

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by QazQay, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. QazQay

    QazQay Member

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    “This summer, we looked at our defensive efficiency, which for years had been very high. And last year, we went in the 10-15 range. And I think we were valuing some things that weren’t nearly as important as the data showed us. We learned from the Celtics.
    “While they were really high in defensive efficiency, they weren’t very high in defensive rebounding. And that was a big part of where our emphasis was, and it made us question is that really where we should be paying attention. And those were discussions that were then brought to Pop from our coaches and from our analytics team. And some great discussions came from that, that ended up having us reevaluate what was important to us.”



    http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2013/03/22/these-spurs-arent-the-same/
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Interesting article. Thanks for posting.
     
  3. wizkid83

    wizkid83 Member

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    Is it just me or did anyone else read that as they saw their defensive rebounding wasn't very high despite high defensive efficiency and decide to focus more on it?
     
  4. Convictedstupid

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    Great stuff.

    Spurs are easily the best run franchise from top to bottom, IMO.
     
  5. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    They looked at the Celtics, who had a high defensive efficiency despite not being great at defensive rebounding. Then, they decided, for their personnel, that they should focus more on contesting shots rather than defensive rebounding.

    It would be interesting to see how these two factors correlate. From the article, I would expect that the tendency is the better you do in one, the worse you'd do in the other.
     
  6. carayip

    carayip Member

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    They definitely are correlated. Try watching David Lee play, he's the classic master to sag off opposing players and not fully committ to contest shots in order to get into position more quickly to defensive rebound.
     
  7. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    There is no correlation.

    Statisticians are weakest at defense quantifiers. This is coming from a fan who watches the defense and not the ball. What? You think coaches watch the ball?

    There is nothing to see here...move along.
     
  8. TheRealist137

    TheRealist137 Member

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    I trust some of the best basketball minds in the world such as poppovich over some random internet poster.
     
  9. Outlier

    Outlier Member

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    This guy hates the Spurs so much. What did they do to you?
     
  10. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Member

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    *Cleverly disguised CH "Patrick Patterson didn't rebound because he focused on contesting the shots" justification post*

    But think about it, in 5 defensive trips

    - Would you rather allow 2 trips and get the rebounds in the other 3 so your stats get padded and you look like a "glass cleaner".

    - Or stop 5 possessions yourself resulting in 5 different players rebounding the ball.

    I think the Raptors SportsVU cameras thread indicated that players still arent as sharp on help defense as they should. Maybe its a couple too many guys sagging back looking for boards instead of focusing on the stop.

    Thought this was an interesting comment
    Yeah more ammo for the "shoulda drafted Kawhi" over Marcus Morris. folks And who knew Lamar Odom was a defensive man off the bench.
     
  11. what

    what Member

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    Umm, I can't fathom Pop or any coach would say defensive rebounding is more important than contesting shots.

    Really?

    I just don't understand the point.
     
  12. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Member

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    Maybe we should see something.

    Lots know the Rockets title team with Drexler wasnt a great rebounding team :) Maybe it was more "Mario Elie" effect and Horry just getting in their faces causing stops than cleaning the glass.

    But then there's that other notion that the blocked shots stat is overrated, too. So the stat of rejecting shots for stops is overrated, and getting off stops is also overrated. What's that leave you on defense?

    I guess you just get steals and cause passes to go out of bounds for turnovers then. Or cause lots of shot clock violations somehow
     
  13. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    There is only one quote in that article. I not even arguing that quote. I'm saying there is no correlation throughout the league that says defensive rebounding vs contesting shots.

    besides...the fact I'm saying that is the Spurs used to do it another way. So the same team as done it both ways.

    It's just a classic journalist making an intriguing point about some "small sample size" data vs the whole league and all history.
     
  14. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    :confused: The journalist is stretching one quote too far for me.

    Yes, I do hate the Spurs, but I can set that aside to talk basketball, especially defense. Honestly, when have you ever seen me actually criticize their offense or defense schemes.

    Do you see Clutch criticizing Sloan's offense. Yet, he hates the Jazz with a passion.
     
  15. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Contesting shots and blocked shots stat are not the same. Contesting shots is just good defense. You always try your best to contest shots on defense. But you don't have to be a great shot blocker to be effective in contesting shots. In fact, most shot blocking happens from weak side defense which has nothing to do with contesting your man's shot.

    Like durvasa said, it'd be interesting to see if there is a statistical correlation between defensive efficiency and defensive rebounding. DRtg is points allow per 100 possessions. When a team gives up an offensive rebound to the opponent, does that count as a new possession? If so, then DRtg might be overrated. If not, then DRtg is more important than DReb%.
     
  16. VBG

    VBG Member

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    That's interesting. The Bulls and Grizzlies have fantastic defenses and DRB. PPP is higher after an offensive rebound so giving up rebounds is generally not good for your team. Leads to easy baskets.
     
  17. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    I wouldn't expect a strong correlation. Bad teams will tend to be bad at both, good teams will tend to be good at both.

    But, at the same time, being really good at contesting shots necessarily means a player is prioritizing a shot contest versus hanging back to get the rebound. I would expect them to be, weakly, negatively correlated.

    Its easy enough to figure this out, I think. I'll check out the numbers and report the results in this thread in a short while ...
     
  18. basketballholic

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    Celtics didn't win anything last year. Great defensively mostly due to 3 guys, Garnett controlling the paint area and Rondo and Bradley driving opponents nuts on the perimeter. Boston had arguably the best perimeter D combo in the league. They probably could have won a title and best Miami if they had a dominant glass eater and low post scorer to plug into that lineup.

    Contesting shots is important. And rebounding is important. It's all important. By the way, the Spurs...they're 6th in the league in DRB% at 74.6. So they are boarding.

    In today's NBA, there has to be a defensive emphasis on scrambling on the perimeter if you expect to be a good defense. The rules are bent to favor the perimeter guys so good defense starts there. You gotta have a couple perimeter guys that can body up, move their feet, and force the opponent to make extra passes and cuts. Combine that with a guy in the paint that is long and quick and can board (Asik/Garnett/Chandler/Dwight/you might as well insert Splitter here because he's good too) and you got something.

    While San Antonio did study Boston's defense, there's no way that they ditched emphasis on defensive rebounding. Not to mention defensive rebounding is a product of good defense. You scramble, contest the shot and you BLOCK OUT! That's an OLD SKOOL concept that most everybody under age 30 don't understand. But it's a fundamental part of the game and the best defenses do it. You rebound as a team.

    When our Rockets decide to embrace the defensive end as a unit and start coordinating their defensive play like they coordinate their offensive play you will most likely see Asik's rebounds dip a bit but the overall team defensive shoot through the roof as the concept of team defense and team rebounding come to the forefront.
     
  19. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Member

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    Its not just blocks. Then also STEALS is "overrated" lol. So basically all counting stats and game average stats means nothing. Just "gives up only _% to opposing player" matters (I'm just saying that pretending to be know-it-all myth debunking "intangibles" stats guy. I hate that crap. And I know a steal is better because its an instant change of possession when a blocked shot doesnt necessarily do that)

    Actually I agree with you on the contested shots thing. Back when I played ball in my younger days I never gambled on steals and deflections and blocked shots. Sound generic position defense. I only stayed in front of my man blocking his path the basket like a defensive back and put a hand up every time they shot. Though can say that getting rejected a couple times can be an intimidating thing at times. Makes you think a little more when driving.

    And on the weakside help defense, its stated that it IS important to help out. Maybe not with blocked shots but to get off your man at times. THAT is what I'm curious about, how much that really matters. But not easy to track
     
  20. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    durvasa. I think what im saying is that contesting shots doesn't necessarily mean you are bad at defensive rebounding. No matter if you are a good team or a bad team

    But I do believe in the other way around. If your best rebounder is the focus of your offense then you often have relatively weak offensive rebounding. That was true for both the rockets and the Knicks in the Hakeem and Ewing era
     

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