Good question. And that really goes to the heart of it. We are really discussing two time frames here. Your argument outlines a time frame during the pregnancy where a mother makes a decision about abortion...presumably in the 1st trimester. My time frame occurs prior to that ...at the point of conception. And that is why I am right and you are wrong. Due to the timing, the decisions made up to conception trump any subsequent decisions. The father had 100% control with no coercion or other outside factors to decide to have sex. To call the man a powerless victim places no accountability on his own actions which got him into this situation. If men want MORE say, then more men should keep their jimmy's wrapped up. PERIOD. At least until they've had an adult conversation with their partner about what they would do if she were to get pregnant. THAT is how a man should take responsibility. If you want to take responsiblity for a child AFTER it was conceived from an illadvised relationship, then you ALREADY screwed up. Sorry, but now the woman has control. That's reality...not theory.
You were engaged in that part of the argument with someone else. My point was that the pro-Life side of the argument contributes less to the demand for abortion than does the pro-Choice side. To me that is a very logical supposition; I'm not sure though if there is data to substantiate it. Anecdotally, anyone going in for an abortion is obviously pro-Choice, so the ledger may read 100% to 0% when you get down to brass tacks. Are there any other areas in this child's lilfe (other than life and death) that the father has absolutely zero say in?
LOL. RE: abortions, I grant you that. But to be fair, you said the "pregnancy rate AND abortions". So how do we know the pregnancy rate, not abortion rate, is higher amoung pro-choicers? Yes, all the areas after the child turns 18. Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand your question here.
An unexpected or accidental pregnancy is not a social problem when the mother and father are willing to step up to the plate and accept the new responsibilities of the life-changing event that they have "caused." Do you have any doubt that the pro-Life crowd is more ready to step up to the new responibilities than the pro-Choice crowd? The other question was just as blunt as it seemed. It is meant to be provocative.
Most abortions (I'm assuming) occur with unwed mothers. If you want to talk about RESPONSIBILITIES, then your argument is too late. The responsibility should have been taken prior to having sex ...not after. Nope, 98% of the time an unwanted pregnancy occured in the first place due to the lack of responsibility. So I can't give credit to one side or the other for what happens afterwards. I didn't understand the question.
Keep in mind that these things aren't always as intuitive as you'd think. We've already learned in another thread that the "divorce is bad" crowd has the highest rates of divorce in the country.
Seriously, why shouldn't I be told if my wife/girlfriend/late night dalliance gets pregnant and decides to have an abortion? Is it her right to sneak off and terminate a pregnancy she doesn't want? What if I want the baby ~ shouldn't I at least get a chance to discuss the matter?
It is like an investment Sex is the Transaction Sperm is the currency sometimes investments pay off If your investment pays off. . . I think you should at least be made aware of it. If the person you invest with . . hits big with it. . but never tells you they generally goto Jail Rocket River
Basically Our government has gotten into the Secret keeping business If your 15 yr gets pregnancy . . . rather than inform you so you can work to help her so it don't happens again . . . . they keep want her to not have to tell you l .. . so she can do it again and again and again . . . . . until she gets something or something worse happens. . . basically Govt ain't helping you raise ya kids they working against you . . . of course when your kid goes south . . . they will blame you for it Rocket River
I am torn on this issue. So anything I say that disagrees with this post is pretty much me just plaing devil's advocate, because I'm up in the air on the whole thing. My one concern about telling the parents is if it is dangerous for the daughter to so because of an abusive parent or something. And if the parents would want the daughter to tell them about such a thing shouldn't they develop the kind of relationship with their daughter where she will talk to them about those kinds of things?
<b>krosfyah Most abortions (I'm assuming) occur with unwed mothers. If you want to talk about RESPONSIBILITIES, then your argument is too late. The responsibility should have been taken prior to having sex ...not after.</b> It is seldom too late to take on a responsibility. I get your point though-- maybe it would have been better to not have conceived the child, but that doesn't make it is not a uniquely good decision to take responsibility for the child once conceived. <b>Nope, 98% of the time an unwanted pregnancy occured in the first place due to the lack of responsibility. So I can't give credit to one side or the other for what happens afterwards.</b> There is a contingency here which rises us once a child is conceived. Again, it depends on how they respond to the news of pregnancy. Which side is more likely to raise the child: pro-Life or pro-Choice?
I understand but .. recent policy has been so against the parent They err on the side of the child so to speak Kids half gain so many rights with so little responsibility or liability For instance. . a child files a false child abuse claim not much will happen . . but some kids use it as a hammer against their parents Govt talking about supporting marriage and family how can you support family by creating tension and secrets between Parents and kids? Rocket River
Well, the topic of the thread is about spousal notification...not necessarily about the choice to raise a child. So many here are offended that a "right" has been denied to the father since he has no say in the abortion without spousal notification. My point is, the father HAD 100% responsibility/control over the situation prior to conception. To claim that the father now has no say in the matter simply makes the father look like a victim. Had the father took responsibility for his actions previously, we wouldn't even have to have the uncomfortable conversation about abortion and all the moral and legal questions surrounding it. That is my point. Don't make the father look like a victim because he isn't.
What if the father wanted to have a kid. Then his having unprotected sex with the mother is right in line with that goal. If the mother has the right to abort or not without the father's input, then his right to that child is certainly taken away, something that no amount of resposibility on his part before the act could prevent. On the other hand, maybe the father doesn't want the child, but the girl lied to him and said she was (on the pill, infertile, using any number of contraceptive available to her, providing him with a functioning condom) but it was a lie. At that point, she can have the kid and the father is financially responsible whether he wants to be or not. No matter what the situation, the mother is given extra rights over the father. She could also avoid pregnancy by not having sex, just as the father could, but you don't think she should just be SOL if it results in an unwanted pregnancy. All of these issues would go away if abortion were not an option though.
Not as many as the mother. Period. No two ways about it. The unborn doesn't have a SS# or birth cirtificate. As such, legally, the unborn does not have as many rights. Nevertheless, the rights of the unborn in irrelevant RE: this topic. The topic is about spousal notification.
Since he is the spouse, he should have discussed that with the mother prior to having sex ... like responsible adults. Don't trust anybody but yourself. If YOU want to be protected, you have 100% control. Use a condom or if you aren't satisfied w/ the 1% risk, then avoid sex altogether. You have 100% control. If you chose to entrust the mother's birth control, then by default you have relinquished control of the situation. Again, quit trying to make the father out to be the victim. Yes she does...God/evolution made it that way. She had additional rights because she bears the responsibility of child bearing. Period. Abortion should continue to be an option, IMO. Unfortunately, that father gets little LEGAL say in the matter. That being said, if we are to undergoe adult activities, then we must act like adults. And adults have mature converstations including sex, pregnancy and child bearing. The father can communicate with the mother 95% of the time, that is sufficient. The father doesn't need additional legal resources on the issue if the father simply acted responsibly PRIOR to conception.
That says it best I think. Every individual case has it own nuances and circumstances. What is legal is not always fair or moral. But laws can't really be codified to handle every situation equitable and fairly.
With regard to the liberals' favorite case -- Casey v. Planned Parenthood -- I would hope (yet doubt) that everyone is aware that in their joint opinion on the case, Justices O'Connor, Kennedy and Souter all allowed parental notification to remain in effect. I guess they want to overturn Roe v Wade as well...
And if he discussed the issue with her beforehand, she agreed that having a baby would be nice, and after conception decides to abort? What if the woman sabotaged the man's condom while he was in the bathroom. A man then using a condom that he provided for himself conceives a child, through the skullduggery of his sexual partner. Should he still have no recourse? Your entire responsibility rif here and above relies on the honesty of the mother. Look where depending on the honesty of woman got Adam. God/evolution does not provide her with an abortion. The father has LEGAL responsibilities, so he should have LEGAL say in the matter. The mother has the biological responsibility for the child for 9 months, but only the father is required to care for it for 18 years. In that way, he has far more responsibilities to the child than the mother.
