Actually Butler can waive his trade kicker, meaning we can get him with as little as Gordon and Qi salary wise. Right @BimaThug ? Or was there more nuance to this?
We all heard Mike D’antoni rave about PJ Tucker being one of the best players in the league. We all figured he was not included in trade talks after that. Imagine Morey told Coach hype up PJ and hope Minnesota are watching this interview. Get them excited about us including PJ
So if we can find a way to get Sacramento to open an additional 3.6m in cap room they could absorb Brandon Knight outright (more on why that is good in a moment). We could technically do it by absorbing Harry Giles and Frank Mason into our exceptions, or maybe another team. So, if Sacramento can absorb Knight outright into capspace, we send them our 2019 #1 and #2, as compensation Minny sends us Butler and Dieng Houston sends Minny Gordon and significantly cleans up their cap situation. Paul / MCW Harden / Green Butler / Ennis Tucker / Melo Capela / Dieng I think that makes us better than last year.
Giles is a very good talent, Sac aren’t giving him up. Injuries aside I would still be giving him more time.
Your thinking too hard bro, Sac isn't moving Mason or Harry (lotto pick) to make a late 1st off of Knight. And we don't need sac to straight up absorb Knight, they can send an expiring of their choosing (McLemore, Shump, Koufos) to Minny in a 3 team deal, it's not like Minny would take any issue with getting back a cheap expiring deal as they aren't over the tax nor close to having any cap space. 1st trade Gordon, Qi, Hou '22 1st, Hou '23 2nd to Timberwolves Butler* (waives his trade kicker) to Rockets 2nd trade Knight, Hou '19 1st, Hou '21 2nd to Kings McLemore (or other Sac expiring) to Timberwolves Dieng to Rockets We could also look to turn Chriss into value somehow to add more to the deal for Minny, but I think all he's worth at this point is a 2nd which isn't going to move any needles on this deal.
Agreed. Based on what @Codman is saying (as well as common sense) I can't see how Tucker is not on our roster for the long term. But if I'm wrong I'll be the first to post my surprise (unless @Deuce or @heypartner beat me to it). Someone better than me will have to swing the trade machine on this one. If Sacramento's involved and Dieng is being moved, this one get complicated. It almost makes more sense to have two or three independent trades, but Houston has certainly been in touch with everyone.
You sir are not allowed to apologize on this bored. Share all you want, hell I'll even listen to what you had for lunch....
You've done some good work envisioning how this might go down. Moves like this check a ton of boxes off for Minnesota and Sacramento. I just think that first Butler trade, the Rockets will have to give up more to the Wolves (like Nene or the Gentile rights, etc). I'm not sure that your first offer works numerically. Once we see what we have in Knight and how Hartenstein looks in camp, we might just pass on that second trade too. Dieng is certainly a serviceable player. But who knows?
Darren Wolfson/George Karl https://kstp.com/news/scoop-podcast...timberwolves-everson-griffen-vikings/5084762/ George Karl (Carmelo [Denver-to-NY] trade) I thought about that when the (Wolves) owner said he wanted to make a deal quickly. That would be my advice to Minnesota. We hung on because we had 2-3 teams bidding on Carmelo and we had the ability to play one against the other. The longer it lasted, it was so hard on the team to perform & go to the press every day and answer same miserable questions. It was actually too long. The length of it all, we somehow survived and were still in the playoff race. Everyone was so excited to get into the next stage that we played well down the stretch. (That November/December, was Carmelo a pain in the ass at all?) Carmelo is always a little bit of a pain in the ass. It comes down to...maintaining the other guys was more difficult than maybe motivating/inspiring Melo to stay in this. It was the other players saying 'When are we going to move on?' Everyone got the feeling we were kissing his butt rather than we should be moving on and becoming who we want to become. (Initial reaction to when Melo requested the trade? After that, days or weeks later, did your stance change that maybe he did you a favor? You can make the case...Jimmy can play out the year and leave in July while the Wolves get nothing. Maybe in the long run this is a good thing as opposed to losing the asset.) Different from the Melo deal and now. We had 2 teams playing for Melo, both in NY, both wanted to sign him and Melo wanted to sign with them. We had a bidding war going on. Ever since then, I don't think that's happened. San Antonio got a decent deal with Kawhi but don't think they got the deal we got. We rebuilt our team with that trade. I don't think many will give up the farm for not knowing unless Jimmy gives them a handshake deal next year for sure. (Teams need to weigh how much do we give up for a guy in his late 20s, wants 5 years, $190M. If I'm the Nets GM or Clippers GM, there would be reluctance on my end to give Jimmy $40M/year when he's 33/34 years old. Where do you stand?) Money just blows me away. We've gone from $20M to $40M in about 5 years. The problem you have is we're paying some players, and Towns falls into this category more so than Jimmy Butler, we're paying on potential and not on playoff performance. [...] That's for business men & personnel men to decide. I think they can get a deal but I'm not sure waiting on a deal to come is the best way to do it. Once the season begins & if they run into a difficult stretch, I get the feeling he doesn't want to play for them, will he be suspended or sit out the year & not get any money? I don't know. I don't know the tactics of the Minnesota front office. I haven't studied their schedule. It's gonna be a hell of a race to get in the playoffs. It's gonna be harder this year. (Competing in the West this year is so tough & instead of guy(s) who can help immediately, maybe makes more sense to go younger & draft picks as well) You're looking into philosophy of front office vs. coaches. Coaches want to win now. That's their job. That's always a tug of war you have. They have a good, young nucleus. Maybe you want to add younger players but I'm a big believer you're successful with good young players but also veteran players. Butler gives you that. Gibson gives you that. My thing is if Butler can give you a starter & a draft pick, a 26 year old who has been in the league who you know you can get 30 good minutes out of every night and a draft pick, someone who could mentor Towns & Wiggins to grow up fast...it's not always about talent. Sometimes it's about character, chemistry & team as much as it is about talent. (Thibs trying to navigate, do you go young vs. trying to win now with his job on the line) Thibs probably works 10-12 hours a day. This situation, he probably has to work 14-16 hours a day. Those dark circles underneath his eyes will come up pretty soon. (Like to see Denver get involved?) He's a damn good player. Denver plays at a pace that might not be a Jimmy Butler pace to be honest with you. Denver wants to continue to be one of the faster teams in the league. Most players can adapt to playing fast but some players like the possession game, lower tempo game. (Who is a good fit for Jimmy? Brooklyn? Clippers? Bucks? Raptors? Wizards? Sixers? We know Miami is being as aggressive as anyone. Miami? New Orleans? Detroit has reached out although I don't think they're in it anymore. Dallas reached out but I hear they're not in it anymore. Always Houston. Houston is always lurking. Can you picture a team where Jimmy is a good fit?) I think he fits Miami. He has a toughness Riley likes. With Wade being in his last year, you have a vet with him that can help him. The other team that could be dynamic is New Orleans. The Holiday kid came into his own last year at the PG position. Jimmy & Davis with enough other guys to fill in around them, they'd go from the lower echelon playoff team to top 4-5 of the Western Conference. (If you're Minnesota, who are you targeting to fit next to Towns/Wiggins? What kind of players?) Everyone with the 3pt ball, Minnesota could add some shooting. If you're gonna catch Golden State & Houston, you're gonna have to make the 3-ball at a consistent level. Give me a starter, good bench player & draft pick. If you can get pieces of the future, that's something you have to look at. (Best coach in the NBA no one talks about?) Terry Stotts & Dwane Casey. The other guy would be Fizdale. He had a good thing in Memphis. Fizdale in his second chance, I think you'll see he'll be impressive.
Darren Wolfson: A trade is coming. Sooner rather than later. I'm more convinced that he never wears a Wolves uniform again. Ownership is pushing to move him sooner rather than later, realizing they need time to sift through offers. One team on the outside, not one of the more aggressive teams(EC team), an exec. texted me. I ran it by him saying 'Hey, word is Thibs/Layden still aren't on the same page as ownership.' He told me via text: 'I never look at it like that. It's just about the ask and the get. It's likely somewhat by design to tap the breaks and buy some oxygen. Whatever deal you put on the table will get a counter and another counter back. If that doesn't happen, you are getting played. No one has gotten to that next level counter if that makes sense. You have to leave something for the final final offer.' Miami & the Wolves have had dialogue. It sounds like Josh Richardson is not on the table but there's a belief for Miami to complete a deal, they have to include Richardson. It remains to be seen if Riley puts Richardson on the table. Thibodeau FWIW said 'We're still gonna honor his request but won't do a bad deal.' So they're still playing this out to some degree. I had someone with the Wolves suggest Monday that they have to go through a bunch of offers. I asked 'Do you think you'll have at least 8 offers?' This individual who is directly involved said yes, that's the belief. When it's time for final offers, that they'll have at least 8 offers to sift through. I still get the sense Miami is as aggressive as anyone. Other league execs keep saying don't discount the Clippers or Nets. A league source told me the Nets would give Jimmy 5 yrs/$190M next summer. I've heard Miami would be reluctant to give him that much money. They'd want to play this out, see how the year goes. Other teams to keep an eye on, laying in the weeds, I hinted at New Orleans. No real steam there but still keep an eye on. I heard Toronto steam on Sunday morning, that Kyle Lowry is potentially available. Raptors brass shot down the idea they're in on Butler on Monday. Do I think he ends up in Toronto? I don't. Brooklyn, Clippers, Miami, Philly is definitely kicking the tires, I heard Dallas is out, I heard Detroit is out. Still a lot to figure out. Jimmy Butler is going somewhere, sooner rather than later. Thibs said Monday at media day last Tuesday was the first time I heard Jimmy wanted out. The Butler camp has floated out it's not the case. The Butler camp is suggesting they made the trade suggestion way earlier in the summer. It's a debate of semantics. Last Tuesday I think Thibs for the first time really got the idea he wanted out but based on Butler's actions at the end of the season, then immediately after the playoff loss to Houston, there were signs. There were signs Thibs should have been able to read Jimmy didn't want to be here but I do think Thibs is telling the truth. I know some teams have no interest in giving Butler 5 years/$190M. They'd love to have him for this upcoming season. They'd rent him but if the price is too high, they won't do the trade. They know they aren't paying him. Hand surgery, knee surgery, broke down in Chicago, you give him 5 years, $190M, is that something you really want to do? Sacramento was involved. If the Wolves can dump Dieng, yes they are still interested in doing so. I don't see a scenario where Dieng with 3 years, $48M ends up in Toronto or just about anywhere, outside of maybe Sacramento if they can get a 1st round pick & 2nd round pick. I think they need more than one pick or an additional asset. That'd be Sacramento's involvement. Pacers are not in on Butler. Zero dialogue. Detroit & Dallas are said to be out. As this drags on for another 24-48-72 hours, if it goes beyond that, some teams out may start to kick the tires again but keeping an eye on Miami the most, then the Clippers, Nets, Philly, Milwaukee on the outside, New Orleans lurking and surely one mystery team, if not multiple. Those are the teams to keep an eye on. Boston or Houston would be a mystery team. We know Houston is trying to edge out Golden State. Houston would love to have Jimmy Butler. Is there a way for Houston to get involved? Those are the teams to keep an eye on the most.
Lmao no they'd kill it in a heartbeat. I love running ideas through other fan bases, idk why but its fun for me. I swear though, those Miami fans are going to have me run my head through a brick wall and delete my account on there with those hot takes on James Johnson.
I just can't see how a package centered around Josh Richardson is better than Eric Gordon. But if Jimmy doesn't end up in Houston, I am totally fine with him going to Miami.
Regarding Zhou Qi and "filler" / Caboclo, see BimaThug & heypartner's posts below regarding salary matching... [Eric Pincus (notes)] - Non-Guaranteed Salaries Michael Carter-Williams $1,757,429 ($1.2 million guaranteed) Bruno Caboclo $1,621,415 Zhou Qi $1,378,242 Vince Edwards $838,464 Gary Clark $838,464 Rob Gray $838,464
