By all means you are entitled to your opinion, if you think he can match the output of both or higher and still have great chemistry within the team im all for it. I just dont think Butler by himself takes us past the Warriors. Not to mention, this deal probably isnt happening anyways.
I'll take Butler/GG over PJ/EGo.... Imo on the open market, PJ and EGo are each a 1st rd pick type player + a sweetner or two... but Butler is a 'build a package for' type player...
There's no way Jimmy Butler is relegated to a catch and shoot role. That's the same kind of stuff people were saying about CP3 and Harden not being able to coexist because they both supposedly need the ball in their hands. Not only did they coexist, but their dominance opened up the lane for EGo, who had far more opportunities to attack off the dribble than he did in 16-17 when it was just Harden creating everything. EGo had a career year in terms of attempts and percentage at the rim. Butler wouldn't just be a better version of Ariza, he'd be a better version of Gordon too. In the regular season the CP3/EGo/Harden lineup was insane offensively, though we didn't use it extensively. There's only a pecking order because outside of Harden, CP3, and EGo we don't have anyone else that can consistently create their own shot. We were so desperate for another playmaker that we brought in Joe Johnson thinking he could bring another dimension off the bench with his iso scoring. It's nice that some guys know their role, but we need talent. Butler is the level of talent that takes us to the next level. Plus, he allows us to rest CP3 a lot more.
So you think he puts us past the Warriors even with PJ and EG gone, correct? Or if not put us past the Warriors, he gives us a better shot? Yea thats fine, but I really dont think its some giant no brainer like some of you guys want to believe.
I've been lurking on other teams proposals for Butler and this is what I came across: Portland receives: Butler Minnesota receives: Al-Farouq Aminu, Moe Harkless, Zach Collins, top 10 protected 2019 first round pick Phoenix receives: Butler Minnesota receives: TJ Warren, protected 2019 first round pick Lakers receives: Butler Minnesota receives: KCP, Kuzma, and possibly Hart (but this deal needs to be done AFTER Dec 15th) 76ers receives: Butler Minnesota receives: Dario Saric, Zhaire Smith, and Wilson Chandler Toronto receives: Butler Minnesota receives: Serge Ibaka, and Siakam or OG Anunoboy Utah receives: Butler Minnesota receives: Alec Burks, Derrick Favors, 2019 first round pick It really appears like we may have a shot in trading for Jimmy Buckets.
Out of those I'd take the Lakers offer. Toronto fans are absolutely nuts. It should take Siakam or Anunoby just to get teams to consider taking on Ibaka's trash ass contract.
I do think it puts us in a better position to beat the GSW... I understand your apprehension, I wasn't really happy with the CP3 trade initially - I thought we gave up too much considering CP3s age, injury history and upcoming contract... but guys like Bev, EGo, PJ, etc are great guys to have on your team and I certainly enjoy cheering for them - but these are the type of moves that have to be made if you wanna make it to the top of the mountain... imo...
Butler makes us better and raises our ceiling...in the playoffs, I want a guy like him who can consistently give u high level play...Ego can’t do that, and while PJ is very valuable, especially against GS, I can’t let him make me say no to acquiring a player like Jimmy Butler Morey will work to fill out the roster and will find away to bring in another role player or 2 that can help against GS and minimize the loss of a guy like Tucker...I trust him on that I do think u might be underestimating Butler’s impact aside from this info I posted earlier in this thread and Butler being 4th in RPM last year behind only CP3, Harden, and Curry...the Wolves were 37-22 in games that he played in (a 51 win pace), and just 10-13 without him (a 36 win pace)...Wolves add him to their team and immediately go from perennial lotto team to making the playoffs for the 1st time since 2004, and they were the clear 3rd seed in the West before Butler went down with injury after being 13th in the West the year before Ego and PJ combined could never have that type of impact on any team just like CP3 more than made up for the loss of all those role players we gave up, I’m confident that Butler could do the same...he’s 1 of the best 2-way stars in the game
My only concern is if he walks then we won't have the caproom to sign another player like Gordon, right? Won't we only be able to offer MLE deals?
My two cents: Portland offer is interesting but it's missing a good scorer like Gordon, i think it would make more sense for them to actually trade CJ if they want Butler and if they want to get him. Lillard, Butler, Harkless, Aminu, Nurkic...that's pretty good and better than what they are now. Phoenix would've to move Jackson for Butler and they won't since they're betting on their 3 young big three, Warren is just not what Minnie needs anyway and for me he has not great value to begin with. Lakers package is good but imo only if Minnie decides to do some sort of semi rebuild, if Thibs stays there i just don't see him being ok with this package. Sixers package is good too, similar to the Lakers one but not sure Thibs would be ok with this either, Towns and Saric...a lot of talent but that defense (just like Towns and Kuzma)... Ibaka is done, Ryan Anderson kind of value at this point, and the Wolves have Gibson which is better. Siakam has any value? Dude started some games in the regular season on the East doing ok...i don't see anything special in him, i feel like people thinks he's that good because of that (and because the mighty Ujiri drafted signed him) while he's not even as good as T.Jones was here. OG is very interesting/good, but not enough if traded next to Ibaka (negative value) and Siakam (neutral value). Favors is injury prone, and again, Minnie already has Gibson, getting back Favors (like Ibaka) just makes their cap situation worse for no reason. Burks is another guy with zero if not negative value, Jazz 1st is not going to be good, especially with Butler on the team. You didn't consider them, and rightfully so imo, like others said Boston isn't going to trade for Butler at this point so, that should help.
You don't think Daryl can convince Tilman to pay one of the best 2 way players in Jimmy Buckets a max long term deal?
um.. if we're gonna have harden and cp3 running point for 48 mins... that means that there will be a lot of times where butler is in a catch and shoot role - just like eg does for us right now. with melo, we're hopeful that he will be happy playing a role similar to olympic melo, where he was mostly catch and shoot and a quick decision maker instead of being a ball-stopper. if we let jimmy butler dictate the offensive flow by dumping the ball to him on the post or the wing and letting him do his thing... we're actually going away from letting two of the best pgs in the nba from doing their thing, which was the most efficient offense in nba history. we'd also be getting away from the harden/capela high screen action that d'antoni so loves. not saying butler is bad at creating offense for himself or others.. in fact he's great. but he's still a level below harden and cp3 when it comes to generating offense for himself and others. which is why either harden or cp3 will always be the primary playmaker on the floor and jimmy butler will, at times, have to play a catch and shoot role regardless of whether that best fits his skill set or not. again, i'm not knocking butler. he'd be an unbelievable improvement over the ariza/moute combination we had last season. he's one of the best 2 way players on the market and with us being capped out for the next several years, he's one of the few realistic targets we can get to improve the team. but we also have more playmakers already than last season with brandon knight, mcw, and melo, even if they have their worts. and whatever happened to "run it back"? if we trade both eg and pj.. that leaves cc, harden, cp, and gg as the only ones left from last season's rotation. i would love to have jimmy butler on the team, but we've got a find a way to keep pj tucker. him and cp are the qb's of the defense and with biglydick gone, it's even more important that we communicate on that end.
i think we're overvaluing how much the rest of the league is willing to give up in a trade for jimmy butler toronto got kawhi by trading away a high scoring, no defense, max contract derozan and poetl. no one else gave an offer to top that.. sixers even refused to include markelle fultz for kawhi... what makes you guys think they will offer anything better for butler? the season is close to the start so rosters are more or less fixed, and other than gsw and hou, every other nba team right now is gunning for the 2019 free agency class, and some are delusional enough to think they can get kd, klay, kawhi, or kyrie. teams like boston and philly are saving their eggs for a bigger prize like anthony davis. eg is coming off 2 great seasons, plays both ways, is a knockdown 3 pt shooter in a league that values 3pt shooting more than any other era, and is a playoff-proven vet still in his prime on a great contract with 2 yrs left. we can still trade one of brandon knight/marquese chriss right now if we want (just not both in a package until oct. 31st). on a sidenote - butler had a torn meniscus last season in a game against the rockets and decided to remove it instead of surgical repair, so that he could return in time for the playoffs - which means there is some cause for concern down the road. i think he'll be fine, however. not sure what the rest of the league thinks of that. eg + knight/chriss + 2019 1st + 2021 protected first should be more than enough...
I agree with you. I'm just saying, if the option to keep Tucker doesn't exist, then I wouldn't hesitate to pick Butler over Tucker. I've often said that when you want to win a ring, you need to surround your stars with knife fighters. But stars are more important. There's no one who wouldn't RATHER keep Tucker, but in reality it might be the difference between getting a deal done or not. Other teams have better assets. Wasting this opportunity - if it's a real opportunity - is not wise, given Paul's age.
I don't want to give up PJ or EG for Jimmy Butler. It will hurt our depth. PJ and EG are underrated. I think other teams will offer more than Houston will for him.
