Somewhere Michael Jordan is sitting in his PJs, laughing...

You make some good points, but I will say this. The main reason why Celtics were no favored to win is because no one knew which Celtics would show up. Their performance in the 1st and 2nd round was definitely a disappointment, but I don't think they were playing true Celtics ball around that time. I don't know exactly what was going on (aside from Ray Allen's mega slump), but they just were not the same team. Somehow against Detroit and in the Finals, they regained their composure though.

Also in regards to hand checking... it's true that there are more touch fouls called nowadays but don't forget about the "Jordan Rules" that allowed him to get away with much more as well.

But yeah, I agree with the final conclusion. Jordan seems to pwn Kobe... especially when you put up those Finals stats. That is an incredible difference.

 

Look at the teams the Bulls beat. As great as the Bulls teams were, the teams that they beat to win the Finals weren't 100% championship material to begin with.

Magic Johnson was in the Finals 10 times and won 5. That's a great career and it means that the competition was often just as good or even better than his own teams. So just cause you lose in the Finals doesn't mean much in the long run if you still get your rings.

 

Thats the single stupidest thing I have read on this board.

Blazers, Suns, Sonics, Jazz were not championship caliber teams?

Pistons, Knicks, Pacers were not championship caliber teams?

 

Absolutely... Which one of those teams won a championship who the Bulls faced in the Finals?

Magic never won without Kareem (Kareem wasn't on that 91 team).

Blazers, Suns, Sonics, Jazz... How many rings those teams got, even when MJ was out? Knicks, Pacers? MJ even retired twice and gave most of those teams a new window.

Nuff said...

 

Dude are you seriously kidding me...no disrespect intended but those teams would have owned any of the championship teams in the 2000s...except the Lakers with Shaq that one year...probably even them i guess. Not even the spurs could have done anything.

That sonics and jazz team was unbelievable. There is a reason they didn't win , go watch the finals tapes

 

I have to disagree. Those Lakers and Spurs 2000's teams (the ones with Shaq/Kobe, Duncan/Robinson) would have eaten the Sonics and Jazz alive. Who was going to guard Shaq? Or keep Robinson and Duncan from controlling the paint? Neither the Sonics of the Jazz had much in the Center department. I'd even put this year's Celtics team ahead of those Jazz/Sonics teams.

Let's take a look at the teams MJ beat... IMO, it got easier and easier with each Finals he was in. And MJ never beat a team in the Finals that had a great Center. (Which makes the loss to history of a potential Rockets/Bulls mid-90s Finals ever the more tantalising).

1997/1998 Finals:

Utah roster: Karl Malone, John Stockton, Greg Ostertag, Jeff Hornacek, Bryon Russell, Shandon Anderson, Adam Keefe, Howard Eisley, Antoine Carr, Greg Foster, Chris Morris, Jacque Vaughn, Troy Hudson...

Geez.. That roster must have really put the fear in MJ; between that fearsome team and staying up gambling, he must have had quite a sleepless night. The thought of Stockton slamming a dunk home over him must have given him nightmares, and the scouting report on making a steal on Malone after a rebound must have had MJ shaking his head... with fear!... Two years in a row...

1996 Finals:

Sonics: Gary Payton | Shawn Kemp | Detlef Schrempf | Hersey Hawkins | Sam Perkins | Vincent Askew | Ervin Johnson | Frank Brickowski | Nate McMillan | David Wingate | Sherell Ford | Eric Snow | Steve Scheffler |

See above (Jazz). Minus Stockton/Malone and Kemp/Payton, the teams MJ and company beat for the final 'ships weren't much to write home about by any stretch of the imagination. Brickowski and Ostertag probably still haunt MJ, though. Not a decent center on Sonics or Jazz.

The first three championships were against better teams, and I'd have to say MJ/PIp/and Grant really earned those.

1993 Finals:

Suns: Charles Barkley| Kevin Johnson | Dan Majerle | Tom Chambers | Danny Ainge | Richard Dumas | Negele Knight | Oliver Miller | Mark West | Jerrod Mustaf | Frank Johnson | Tim Kempton |

Decent, but not 'great' opponents, and not scary for MJ... No Center even on Phoenix.

1992 Finals:

Blazers: Clyde Drexler | Terry Porter | Jerome Kersey | Clifford Robinson | Buck Williams | Danny Ainge | Kevin Duckworth | Alaa Abdelnaby | Robert Pack | Mark Bryant | Ennis Whatley | Lamont Strothers | Wayne Cooper |

Good team, but not quite 'great'. Kersey is erratic. Cliff is not yet seasoned, doesn't really have a position. Buck is a defender/rebounder. Ainge?... MJ beat Ainge twice in a row in the Finals on different teams? In the twilight of Ainge's career? Too much... Duckworth was a flotation device. Bench bites, though I guess Bryant and Pack were okay. Who is Lamont Strothers? Related to Sally?...

1991 Finals:

Lakers: Magic Johnson * James Worthy* * Byron Scott* * Sam Perkins * Vlade Divac * A.C. Green** Terry Teagle*** Mychal Thompson* Tony Smith * Elden Campbell * Larry Drew

MJ's first FInals, and Magic's last. The final remnants of those great 1980s Lakers teams on their last legs. Take away Magic and Worthy and the team does not look so hot. Not a great bench. No Kareem, who already retired. A changing of the guard. Still a decent team. MJ was up against the aura of the Lakers, and won. His greatest championship, imo..

 

Uh...

The thing is, this whole "Finals center" argument doesn't really hold water when you see the teams Jordan defeated on his way to the Finals. Jordan swept Shaq/Penny, is the main reason why Ewing doesn't have a ring and throughly dominated young Zo.

...But yeh, Hakeem vs MJ would've been something to behold.

 

We have to keep in mind, though, that Shaq wasn't yet 'great'. Remember when he was added to the '50 Greatest Players' before he'd won anything? He was known back then for potential rather than being the best in the game - which it was attributed at that time to Akeem and Robinson. Ewing always struck me as a jumpshooter, and I wish he had had a back-to-the-basket game. Some could say that the best teams that MJ beat during his championship years were those Knicks. THat '97 Knicks team looked like they could finally beat MJ, but they were flawed in a way where they never got the chance (they left the bench during a brawl and had to sit out players vs. the Heat). So that '97 KNicks team would have been Ewing's best chance to beat MJ, since they whipped the Bulls in the regular season pretty good. But it's not like Ewing didn't have his chances in '94 and '95. Can't blame those on MJ. Nor '97.

 

Early-mid 90s Shaq was a monster...he was constantly averaging 25+ PPG/10+ RPG seasons...he was great. Unless you define great by championships, in which case you look at both MJ and Hakeem as to why he was never "great".

 

I thought it was 9 times.

 

I always thought Shaq was at his physical peak in Orlando, when he was more nimble and agile, yet still powerful, hungry, and strong. I believe his lack of competition in 200s made him look stronger in his run with Lakers.

 

Shaq really didn't reach his best level of play until the Phil Jackson days. No one was calling him 'maybe the best center ever' back in Orlando.

 

You're right, but it sure seems like 10!

 

Since the break up ~ Shaq 1 -- Kobe 0

 

Not really sure why people were favoring the Lakers in this series. No Bynum. Gasol unproven in the playoffs. Odom disappears frequently. No physical center. They beat a Spurs team that had trouble scoring 75 points in many games this season.

If anything, Boston should have been favored. Best record. Best defense. Two guys who can guard Kobe, in Pierce and Posey.

The times when I thought that Finals series were evenly matched, going back to 1990, as far as 'don't know who will win it', have been:

'06 - Heat/Mavs - (Expansion team madness!)
'05 - Spurs/Pistons
'04 - Pistons/Lakers
'94 - Rockets/Knicks
'91 - Bulls/Lakers

That's only 5 Finals in the last 18 years where there wasn't a clear favorite, as far as I could tell (and I seem to remember the Lakers were generally favored by fans and media vs. Pistons in '04). In the rest of those years, the winner of the Finals series has not been a surprise.

 

'98 - Bulls/Jazz (I thought those teams were pretty evenly matched that year) .... Utah won 65 games in 98.

 

You might not remember this or be too young, Shaq was already being awarded the title of the center of tomorrow. He played toughest era for centers in basketball, and he was still the 2nd best center in most cases.

I think that is totally fallacy with Phil Jackson, Shaq was already a great center, dominating, and had great command over his game. What the Phil Jackson ever add to Shaq's game? His success in Miami and Orlando should've proved that Jackson didn't have alot of bearing on his game.

 

We couldn't even beat the Jazz nor Sonics. Don't shortchange those teams MJ beat.

In 1996 alone he beat Alonzo/Hardaway, Ewing/Mason/Harper, Shaq/Penny

That's 3 great centers in a row.

In 1997 he beat Webber/Alonzo/Prime Deke

In 1993 he beat Willis/Ewing/Daugherty

 

And thats why I rank Magicin my top 3 players to ever play the game.

 

I thought it was 62.