Don't mean to derail the topic...I think you're right, though, you can't just expect to have a job waiting for you wherever you go, much less ahigh paying one that satisfies all your requirements.
I dare you to name me a IT position (that are being outsourced) that only makes 12K...even the tech support positions make more than that, and they are the lowest rung of IT...
yea right... Im gonna come out of school with my degree...and keep going in my spare time to increase my degree level......and you think that companies are gonna hire me to be a freaking manager? and not just anyone can be a innovator....if it was that easy...everyone would do it. yall surprise me....you have zero compassion for others....as long as it doesnt effect you personally....the only thing you care about is the bottom line...all your statements about how noone owes me anything....you are right about that much....and I dont expect anyone to GIVE ME ****... Im more than willing to work my way into positions of responsibility....but when all the entry level jobs are being shipped overseas....how the hell are you supposed to get into a position to work your way up the ladder? think about that for a second....put yourself into someone else's position......you are coming out of school...you have found the field you love to work in.....and every company that is in that field has shipped off the entry level jobs...and their requirements for the remaining jobs call for yea many years of experience + the degree.... what are you gonna do to get your career launched? lets hear it...Im all ears....what is your solution to the scenario I just proposed?
Nope. That doesn't work. Their are very scarce number of jobs that are in the decision making position at these places. That will not replace all the lost IT jobs. Very little that anyone can do with fair working conditions, can't be done cheaper by places that exploit workers, and don't have laws protecting workers health and dignity. There is almost nothing that can't be done when a country is willing to throw decency out the window. Suggesting that we find a way to compete with workers in an inhumane system isn't the answer. The answer is helping corporations to run themselves with principles, fairness, and not support exploitation. The bottom line is exploiting workers and exposing them to unsafe, unfair working conditions is wrong. Even if it makes a company money it's still wrong. No amount of profit changes the fact that it's wrong.
[QUOTE The bottom line is exploiting workers and exposing them to unsafe, unfair working conditions is wrong. Even if it makes a company money it's still wrong. No amount of profit changes the fact that it's wrong. [/B][/QUOTE] Its hard to say people are being exploited when these are some of the highest paying jobs in India, etc...
It is not nearly as hard when you realize that they work 12-16 hour days 6 days a week with no health insurance, no vacation, unsafe working conditions, and other conditions that Americans would never put up with for good reason.
India and China are at a different stage of the development. U.S. and other developed nations have already gone through the 6 days a week, no health insurance, no vacation, unsafe working conditions stage. Where India and China is just beginning to develop their economy. It's part of the growing pain, you can not use the same standards. (it's hard to compain about working 6 days a week when you can't get clean water) But they will improve slowly, just as we did, I believe Chinese now work 5 days a week. An out-source IT worker in India might work 12 hours days in an office, but that's already better than 99% of the working condition in the rest of India. Also don't think we don't work long hours here in U.S., our work hours are much longer than that of the Europeans. Working hard sometimes is not a bad thing. Andymoon, you need to look at this a little more objectively.
No, I think that American corporations should look at this a little more patriotically. They should not exploit workers in other countries that do not have the same worker protections and the government should not reward companies for sending jobs overseas like they do now. I have looked at this objectively and the almighty dollar is simply not as important as Americans. If a corporation thinks that it (profit) is more important than Americans, then they do not deserve to be based here and they do not deserve our money.
So it's ok to exploit workers because they country's they live in are in a different stage of development? That's bogus. I don't care what stage of development a country is in, a person is still a person. Exploiting that person is always wrong. Let's not try and rationalize that. Either it's ok to exploit a person, and take advantage of a situation, or it's wrong.
Your attitude might be a bit different 10-20 years from now, when you are married, have kids who want to go to college, a mortgage, and a couple of outstanding car loans.
But human capital is always replaceable. I would guess that his hope would be to have more of an executive level job in 10-20 years that is not nearly as replaceable by outsourcing.
God, you and andymoon doesn't seem to understand even of the basic economic concepts. So let me give you couple examples: Europeans work a lot less hours than us, they have two month vacations. So should the Europeans complain that the U.S. workers are being exploited? Another example, during the tech boom, many people joined Startups for the hope of striking rich. These people worked long long hours (fairly common to work 80 to 100 hours for startups), so are they being exploited? I would say yes, but they do it willingly because there is the chance of making a lot of money. I sure didn't hear anybody complaining that time, everybody is busy watching their stocks go sky-rocket. The same concept applys to the out-source IT worker in India/China, they are working hard for the hopes of making a better living for their family, nothing wrong with that. The hypocrisy here is so obvious: It's OK for me to work 12 hour days when there is a chance for me to get that million dollar stock payoff. It's NOT OK for some guy in India to work 12 hour days because he is being explioited. All this rhetoric from anymoon and co. are just fluff, when it comes down to it, nobody likes it when something impacts their life(wallet), so we b**** and moan and grab onto any reason we can find.
I don't understand how its exploitation. If you offer someone a job and they take it, it is FREEDOM of choice. I run a company in which I probably work over 60 hours a week and I don't have certain 'big company' benefits, but ITS MY CHOICE. People could say i'm exploited too! I have friends from my MBA that took jobs as Investment Banking associates that i'm sure work WELL over the standard working days and i'm sure work over 70 hours some weeks. Europeans could even say we're exploited, I say we are hard workers. The reason many students from India and China come here and prosper is that they don't believe they will get a handout and believe in hard work. They know unless they're doing their job better and cheaper then no one will pay them to do it. Maybe thats why they are climbing into our best higher learning institutions while people here complain about work weeks, benefits and how many days off.
excatly, my friends working on the street regurally works 80 hour weeks, they work these hours because the hard work pays off, this is the essence of a market(free) economy.
What do you think happens to second and third line managers when the majority of the people they manage are offshore outsourced? Executive VP types may be excluded from lay offs, but that will change in time when their work and function is replaced by high fliers over in India.
I don't see that happening ever for a number of reasons. BUT, if it ever did, you could take your scenario out to the thousandth degree, and end up with an America where there are no workers and only consumers....which itself would never happen cause that creates opportunity, whereby someone with a good degree and 10 to 20 years experience could go out and start their own venture, as an example, and be even more successful.
I listened to Mickey Kanter on this topic here at school yesterday.. former clinton sec of commerce as well as clinton trade rep... He said along the lines of its all politics and not as horrible as the clemocrat side is playing it (even though he was a clinton man) or always as great as the other side is playing it.. It i understood him correctly he was basically saying its a good thing in long run.. increase productivity, increse capital, reinvest capital in US, increase US jobs... But in the short run it hurts us. This has to do with companies basically getting tax advantages by shipping jobs overseas so people here will lose work. Instead we should try giving tax advantages to companies who create jobs. Basically give them tax advantages when they reinvest back here and create jobs. So basically seemed like he was saying... its not a bad thing.. encourage them to reinvest the increased capital they make from outsourcing to create new jobs here.. and give them tax breaks for those new jobs... Seemed like a very smart guy, and not just because he graduated from Vanderbilt... Also had some interesting stuff on trade rounds he tried to get clinton not to start, as well as quite a bit of stuff on his thoughts on the education system here.. and how that plays into outsourcing etc..
democrat not clemocrat lol for those of you who don't know who he is. http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/econ/mcgeelecture those are his credentials to speak on the subject
Does anybody know what tax advantage a company gets for outsourcing other than not paying payroll taxes??? I can see where if my choice was to pay $100,000 plus payroll tax to R2K(if it were up to me, the job would be yours ) or $12,000 and no payroll taxes to Abu, i'd be motivated to 'outsource', but where is the glitch in tax law that encourages this? Seems to me...that the advantage to the company is lower costs. But i don't see how that's a function of the tax code?
