Collier is a bust. On his best day, he might be the next Pete Chilcutt. I can't understand what's keeping TheCat. He should be here any minute. ------------------ [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited June 13, 2001).]
BGM, boville is likely biased. I can give you one fact about Gasol and Radman...the Radman plays in the best leagues in Europe. The leagues are no more equal than Division I NCAA is. The Eastern Leagues vs Spain is like comparing the ACC to the SWC (if not Div II). That's all I know. Look at the NBA talent that has come out of Radman's league vs Spain. Like 10-15 to 0. bigboymumu, He's not in yet. You make me laugh. Did you see my evil anagram of the devil's name. rotedcock much worse than blue balls. It is supposed to be two words, but the cuss filter catches it.
That is not what Clutch said. Please don't start that rumor. All Clutch meant was Webber would be in town to visit around draft day. If it IS what Clutch meant....then I am out of this thread. Webber CANNOT be traded. It is illegal for us to talk to him. He CANNOT be traded. He CANNOT be signed. can I say it again. Webber is not even a FREE AGENT yet and we are not under the cap, yet, so he is not going to be a Rocket on Draft Day. For more info, and input, go to the "Clutch" thread where NIKE and I are discussing the CBA rules about that. Sure there was a Bender for Davis delayed sign n trade on draft day, but that is not Webber, and it is not a 3-way. If Webber is a Rocket on Draft Day, I will never talk about the CBA again, and I will curse Stern's CBA paper-lie with conspiracy theories the rest of my life. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 13, 2001).]
Aelliott, I'm here, just sick and tired of having to say the same things over and over again. So this time I just decided I might as well repost one of my old posts... no need doing it again. Let's take a look at some of the games in which he got the backup center minutes, and let's compare his numbers to the backup centers he played against head to head and see if he "gave up 20." Nov. 7 Lakers-- Collier-- 10 pts, 4 reb, 13 minutes Greg Foster-- 0 pts, 0 re, 3 minutes Now to be fair, he was guarding Shaq a large portion of the night. And what did Shaq get? Shaq-- 24 pts, 7 reb, 45 minutes To help hold Shaq to those numbers in 45 minutes is phenomenal. Nov. 9 Grizzlies-- Collier-- 8 pts, 4 reb, 20 min Ike Austin-- 2 pts, 2 reb, 18 min Nov. 10 Blazers-- Collier-- 12 pts, 4 reb, 21 min Shawn Kemp-- 8 pts, 5 reb, 24 min Nov. 12 Lakers-- Collier-- 10 pts, 3 reb, 16 min G. Foster-- 0 pts, 0 reb, 16 min Now, to be fair, again he guarded Shaq for a large portion of his minutes in that game. Shaq-- 14 pts, 5 reb, 32 minutes He teamed with Dream to hold Shaq to by far his worst game of the season. This is Shaquille O'Neal we're talking about here. Why couldn't he just rip apart Collier, if what you're saying is right? Nov. 18 Suns-- Collier-- 6 pts, 2 reb, 14 min D. Santiago-- 4 pts, 2 reb, 16 min Nov. 22 Celtics-- Collier-- 7 pts, 2 reb, 21 min Potapenko-- 9 pts, 8 reb, 17 min These were the main games in which he was both healthy and getting the backup center minutes. I sure don't remember "Chilly Pete" being able to come in and do this the first weeks of his NBA career. Furthermore, when you remember that these were the first healthy weeks of his career, you know he has a good opportunity to significantly improve. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
Collier and the cap space for Dikembe! Dike can't hold Shaq to anywhere close to those numbers!! ------------------ When this guy started smoking 40 years ago, people had no idea it was bad for you. People had to guess based on the hacking cough, shortness of breath, and bloody phlegm girl you looks good won't you mock that draft up?!
Allow me a little self-congratulation for calling that. Puedlfor, So? Clutch didn't say it was a reverse windmill (or whatever the hell it was). I think we still might be better off drafting Gerald Wallace so we can have some of those cool dunking contests in practice. ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
Thanks for the clarification HeyPartner. Clutch, if you want to clarify any other items on the list, that would be valued, as well. I'm just trying to decifer... ------------------ the more I know, the more I know I don't know...
Boville biased? Puhlease, he knows talent when he sees it, just like we all know Steve Francis is better than Allen Iverson... ------------------ Beauty, was the allure that brought me close to you, Loneliness, was the bond that made me stick like glue, All fantastic images, they only are apparent, Promoted by desperate hope, That things are somewhere better.
Cat- do you realize that a lot of Collier's points came in garbage duty during blowout losses? And need I mention how Divac schooled Collier so badly, Rudy had to take him out??? Divac backed it in on Collier 3 times in row for easy layups. Face, it like someone said earlier, Collier, on his best day, is a Pete Chilcutt. Other days he's just a Joe Kleine or Danny Schayes. ------------------ "Oh No..." -Bill Walton in 97 just before Stockton's buzzer beater
Baqui, Go back and look at the scores of those games. The only two even close to blowouts were the Blazers game and the Celtics game... the others were close throughout. Face it, it is ridiculous to think Collier can be no better than Chilcutt after seeing him for one month of action, esp. a month with those numbers. And if he was so weak inside and gave up those numbers, why did Shaq have just 14 pts and 5 rebounds one of those games. I mean, if it was Collier's defense that was so porous that Divac got 3 layups, then why didn't Shaq score 50? ------------------ "Basketball players win basketball games. Athletes win track meets."-- Shane Battier Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more!
Stevie, I'm not saying Haywood is necessarily a great choice. At 13, we will have only a limited choice of big men. Haywood weighs over 200 lbs., but not by much. He has some game on both ends and height, and he can shot block. There are only about 5 or 6 guys we could get at 13 who are also at least 6'11. None of them are barn burners, but I'd rather have any of them than Cato. T. Morris could also play some two off the bench, enabling us to defend some of the bigger twos that Cat has a tough time defending. ------------------
MO WANTS TO STAY That is by far the best news of the summer so far. I like Mo .. . he grew on me If mo stays let's see what we have MO.T K.T. Collier Langhi Bull Walt MOOCHIE Francis Mobley . .[yeah Crapo] Definately the start of something good. Add DREAM'S RETURN or WEBBER and we 2nd rounders A a good rookie . .and we maybe able to contend. [we will next year at anyrate] 1. Collier is better than folx give him credit Would you prefer McCoullough? PSZEEBEBRB whatever? dino Ragha? There are alot of stiffs in the league . . and Collier will be a valuable backup center. Young can shoot and plays more enthusiastic Defense than Kevin Crapo. 2. I think we have yet to see the best of Langhi. he maybe a bust .. .he may not be . . I think I will give him another year. 3. I expect more improvement from KT and Mo T I think they did well last year and f*ck the naysayers. They are definately a great one two bunch. No they are not elite at their positions but together their are not many PF combos I would take over them [YES THEIR ARE A FEW] 4. If Shandon comes back and is willing to be the 6th man of the year. . . . We are strong! pg - Francis and moochie sg - Mobley and Andersen PF - Mo T and KT Glaring weaknesses are C and SF C because dream is gone . . cato sucks and collier is a great backup. . . mediocre starter. Sf - Walt won't cut it. Langhi hasn't stepped up yet and Bullard is steady but the same as Collier. a supersub but not strong enough as a start IMO. So honestly i do not see all this talk about needing . . no REQUIRING a PF PF is secondary to the C and the SF IMO Rocket River ------------------
If I remember that Kings game correctly, the reason Collier was taken out was b/c of the rookie treatment he was receiving from the refs. Vlade Flop-vac was getting the calls, so Collier couldn't D up. He had 3 fouls in 6 minutes against Flop-vac, that's part of the BS in this league, the rookies never get the calls... ------------------ Beauty, was the allure that brought me close to you, Loneliness, was the bond that made me stick like glue, All fantastic images, they only are apparent, Promoted by desperate hope, That things are somewhere better.
For all of you people who keep saying Collier on his best day isn't any better then Pete Chilcutt, how can you guess that? He was a rookie, who was getting better before getting injured. He was the 3rd center on the team, and just like Langhi had to take time to adjust. I don't know if people are judging him because he is white and not flashy, thus they don't give him a chance. Think about it, when Cato came in he was a flashy, high flying dunker and people were ready to give him a chance before he has so far bombed. Meanwhile most people were ripping into Collier BEFORE he even took the court, mostly because he wasn't flashy. I know people say they felt the Rockets wasted a #9 pick, but the Rockets wasted money on Cato and he was given a chance to prove himself. I mean give Collier a chance! Besides, if he is no better then a role player, then that is what championships are built on. For every Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon there is a Mario Elie, and Luc Longley, and Steve Kerr, and Samaki Walker and Tyronn Lue and Chucky Brown. You can't have a team full of superstars, you have to have quality role players. Collier is capable of being one of the most important pieces to building a playoff team because he can get garbage points and rebounds, hit the open shot, bang, throw his body around, take up space, and fill in quality minutes. Kind of like what Luc did on the Bulls, or what Rambis did for the Lakers. Give him a chance before you compare him to a journeyman. ------------------ The RocksMillenium 1000th post EXTRAVAGANZA! "The road to the top will be littered with broken bodies! Beware all of you who have more post then me!" [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited June 13, 2001).]
It is no mystery that Mo wants to stay. He told the LA media the last time we played the Clips that he would sign a long-term deal right then to stay in Houston. I am not confident in his SF abilities, though. He does REBOUND like a SF. I am glad to heat that the Rockets are still confident in their ability to sign Webber. It seems like a "pie in the sky" aspiration, but if anyone can pull of a miracle, CD can. As to the reference of getting a high school player in the draft to play PF, forget it. Rudy is quite vocal in his opposition to that whole concept. We need someone who can play NOW, not 3 or 4 years down the road. This team is ready to begin the climb to greatness with Cat and Francis. We're one player away. SHANDON - is a very important part of our game plan, but he is just right at around 2-3 million. He was not entirely silent about his lack of shots, though. He went to the press right around X-mas and made some comments about being left out of the loop by Steve and Cat. The thing is, he doesn't LOOK for his shot enough. If he spent the summer working on his range (no more air balls from 3), he could help the Rox a lot next season. AS it is, we pay him almost solely for his defense. TRG ------------------ <A HREF="http://www.TheRocketGuy.com " TARGET=_blank>http://www.TheRocketGuy.com </A> "You try to improve and do better. It's a journey, not just the destination." - Hakeem Olajuwon
The Cat, You need a Collier website, so you don't have to repeat yourself. There is one game you forgot which I believe was the most important. Collier helped Mobley win a game with the pnr. I believe the 1st Indiana game was the most important game for Mobley in the 1st half of the season. That is the 1st game Mobley ever ran 24-high....EVER! He ran it to perfection with Collier. Collier helped Mobley a great deal learning confidence in that play....learning confidence in the picker. We won the game in the final 4 minutes down by 4 or something, in a runaway blowout. Collier nailed both his 18'ers that Mobley fed him off the pnr. That was the beginning of Mobley learning to run 24-high, and it tells me that Collier was the man in practice who Mobley ran it with. Too bad they both ran it poorly against Boston the next game. Oh well. Look for the two to sharpen it up next year. I expect consistent play from Collier/Mobley in the 2nd quarter next year.
Collier-Mobley....hmm, doesn't have the same ring as Stockton-Malone. I think there are 4 SFs we are interested in-Gasol, VladRad, Battier, and Joe Johnson. If we don't move up, Gasol, Battier and Johnson will definitely be gone, so if Seattle is as interested in VladRad as they claim, and take him #12, then I think heyparty will win his bet. I feel if that's the case, the Rockets may then trade #13, as it wouldn't have anyone they like a lot, and then just used 18 and 23 as their picks. BTW heypartner-the Davis-Bender deal was delayed trade, not sign and trade. ------------------ "I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi
Collier's a bust? How is Collier a bust? Maybe I missed something, but I saw every game Collier played in last year and he was taking charges, banging against Shaq, hitting the jumper, and catching passes in the lane. How come everybody is always dissing him. I guess he'll have to do a windmill dunk to get some credit! ------------------
Thanks Clutch. This is silly, but are workouts a little overrated ? Who thinks actual game performance is more important ? I didn't read the entire thread, but what do you guys think of C-Webb coming to town on draft day ? ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you." [This message has been edited by gr8-1 (edited June 13, 2001).]
