Somali axe man attempts to kill 75 yr old Danish cartoonist for Muhammad cartoon

shipwreck, I had a huge response written to your last post. But, it pretty much all got deleted when I hit post. Ughh, i'll respond tomorrow. Sorry dude.

 

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You're definitely right. But, at the same time, there are loads of anti Muslim things published and said all the time. No one makes anything out of those. People did make a big deal out of this. It happens. I know for a fact that other religions also make big deals out of certain things as well. Churches issue statements about things all the time. This was a touchy subject because of the state of the world so it got blown to the proportions it is at. You've gotta at lesat agree with me on that.

I don't think the first part is necessarily true. The second part may very well be. Honestly, I have noticed that as well, and I hate it. It's part of the reason Muslims get so much flack. Stop trying to convert everyone. It's annoying. Doesn't necessarily make them bad, but it's really stuck up.
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I completely believe this story. It's a douche move to expect some sort of special treatment. That guy is a jerk. But see, again, I don't believe that his actions are a direct result of him being Muslim. Let me ask you, just for discussion's sake... If he were not Muslim, do you think he would have pulled some other equivallent stunt?

That's pathetic and it sucks that you have had experiences like that. Like you said though, the Turks who live in big Turkish cities are a lot less backwards than that.

This isn't exactly a fair argument to make. You just made a lot of assumptions. The cartoon wasn't exactly related to Muslim action in Denmark. I can easily think of a few off the top of my head that would show that. He didn't just call out the Danish Muslims, he insulted them all. Like you said, the guy was 70 years old. He was no idiot.

You seem to think that Muslims are unwilling to assimilate. It isn't that. It takes time for it to occur. As far as immigrants and the first generation goes, you are right for a good portion of people. A lot of them are trying to fit in as well. However, look at the second and third generation Muslims living in western countries and you will see almost no difference between them and any other kid. I can't speak of immigrants, but from my experience their children are doing well for themselves and becoming productive, contributing members of society.

On this, you are correct. There is definitely a clash. But, there just needs to be more tolerance/respect/courtesy from both sides so that the world can be a better place. Can we agree to that?

 

hamza, yes, and I appreciate the dialog with you. Even though we are debating issues and disagree on some points, I believe I can see where you are coming from.

 

For sure, and I definitely know where you are coming from. I appreciate the conversation as well. Hopefully one day we can have a better discussion.

 

It does not have to be a gold standard in your mind, but it is the Dutch standard. Condoning physical retaliation (death, mind you) as you do in the following statement:

Means that you do not value the principle of freedom of speech. In effect, you're having your cake and eating it too. You cannot say that you support the cartoonists right to free speech (or that you're glad about it) while simultaneously proclaiming that he deserves death for it. That kind of duplicitous oxymoron is what I mean when I decry the "muslim outlook" (pardon the verbage, it's clumsy I know). Liberal or moderate muslims seem to have a real issue with "walking the walk" - as you show above, it's real easy to pay lip service to free speech, but then you undermine the entire principle only a few words later.

 

It is a personal belief to respect or not respect, and just because 1 billion people are following something does not add up to respect. There are tons of cases throuhout history where a large number of people followed something that turned out to be false, or at least we now think it was false.

Numbers of believers does not equal validation - just ask Greek Gods, or Summarian, or Egyptian...or any number of times that masses of people believed anything.....

No it doesn't....there is nothing that Islam has done to earn respect from non believers like myself.

I respect a person's personal choice to follow, I do not have to respect what they choose to follow....

I agree, but there are also times when something is hypocritical that people stand up and point out that hypocrisy.

In your opinion.

I don't know if I am better, but I am certainly more TOLERANT......I may not believe in religion itself and may even think they are all silly and created by man to control the masses, but I do respect a person's personal choice to follow or not to follow.

And, I would not try to kill someone who had a contrarian way of thinking, or a lack of respect for my views.



DD

 

Yes he does! That's the whole working methodology behind freedom of speech. Stop being so obtuse - each little contradiction just magnifies how little you actually respect the law mentioned above.

I understand why they're bent out of shape, just like why I understand christians got ticked about "piss christ". The difference is that no one sanctioned death upon Andres Serrano and reasonable and educated christians did not defend (nonexistant) calls for his death or threats on his life or safety. But you just did - and it's not a coincidence.

 

Long Story Short - You know what ya get when ya piss on the electric fence. . . . so when ya piss on it don't be surprised.

to INTENTIONALLY attempt to piss people off is imo wrong.
to INTENTIONALLY **** on people is wrong.

Don't be surprised or angry when they people retaliate

We can debate the right or wrongness of the views
but
It is their veiws and they have the right to them.
and *****ting on them is unacceptable IMO.

"Well, the guy wasn't right but this is too extreme . . . "
Well maybe. . . however . . .folx knew the consequences
When you know the consequences. . .and do it anyway . . . why are you b****ing?

Alot easier to argue for the change BEFORE you do the action than after.

I don't like the all to American ideal that . . . I don't agree with your opinion so it is ok to belittle and ***** on them . . . .
This is precisely why we have RED and BLUE states
that refuse to really talk to each other but would rather hold fast to their *side*
even if their opinions change or are more aligned with the other side.

Rocket River

 

That is not what this is about RR, it is completely about respecting the other side, and their ability to disagree in speech without a violent reaction.

I am not condoning the cartoon, but I am condoning his right to make it, and to live in peace.

And also the overeaction to it from many Muslims around the world, including this one that brook into his house with an axe trying to kill him.

If Islam is teaching intolerance, than it is the root of the problem.

DD

 

Except that we are not talking about an electric fence here, but about people who have a conscious choice to make and who are responsible for their actions. Plus, just because something someone says may offend some people, doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

I don't think its fair to say that we are belittling anybody, at least not for what they believe.

From one of my favorite articles ever written: Why They Hate Us (Fareed Zakaria). [link]

I think that Mathloom, and to a lesser degree Hamza, are making small errors of ethical judgement that are extremely commonplace in, and represntative of, the Muslim World. It is simple. It's not about them being Muslim. It's just really insulting to listen to Mathloom say one thing and then betray his entire theses in the following three posts. The basic problem I have here is the hesitance to admit that ONE transgression (ie. attempted axe murder) is worse than the other (ie. cartoon), and to even it out by saying they are both wrong. This is not America the free or whatever the hell you want it to be. This is an internet forum with global context, and a particular part of that forum called DEBATE and DISCUSSION; don't bring your opinions in here unless you want to D or D them. Sorry, Hamza, this is not you directed at you. You have been thorough and earnest. I may disagree, if only slightly, but I appreciate your participation. Mathloom, your lack of rationale offends my sensibilities.

RR, you obviously didn't read the entire thread, and I don't blame you.

 

No. . . I am just talking about the guy making the cartoon and getting this on his door step.

To me it is simple.
Muslims said .. don't do . . it offends me. . .we don't do it
Why ignore it and do it to make fun of or to sell a few papers?
When that blows back on you . . . why people want to act surprised and all brand new? They were told!

This is not disagreement with their philosophy
it is simply saying . . i don't give a **** about your beleifs
cause I'm gonna do what *I* want to do . . . .

From what I hear, Germans don't like the Nazi stuff
If you parade around in it and get arrested . . why you b*tching
you was told?


All the other stuff . . i ain't commenting on.


Rocket River

 

Goodness, this post is so messed up that I don't even know where to start.

So if the KKK tells you "don't go to the front of the bus or we will lynch you", it's your own fault if you get lynched? You were told!

It is an extreme example, but what I am saying is that just because someone ignores an unlawful threat does not mean you are at fault if something happens to you.

You are talking about a law, and violating it in the country you are in. The cartoonist did not violate any laws in his country. Your way of thinking is so flawed it's unbelievable.

 

FTR, Mythbusters tested pissing on an electrified rail(close enough in theory to a electric fence), and nothing happened....the stream isn't really an unbroken stream that electricity can go back thru.




carry on

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that it was only Muslims who cannot depict an image of Mohammad, or is it anyone in general? Even if it was originally just the Muslims who couldn’t, I’m sure they (the radical Muslims) will twist it around like everything else and say no one can.

the stupidity of some/most humans is mind boggling.

 

Which is why they boycotted? The Arrest planned rally point.

Islam's law is you don't do it. I'm don't think me not being german should allow me to take a isht on their laws.

Rocket River

 

Who was the brave man to test that one?

definately would not be the River!

Rocket River

 

Dude it's amazing, sometimes you deliver interesting thoughts (despite Haiku style and spelling) and sometimes you just write such brainless stuff.

 

He is sort of missing the entire point of comparison of the deeds not being equal.

It is like Casey at the bat, right now, he is hitting all air.



DD