Somali axe man attempts to kill 75 yr old Danish cartoonist for Muhammad cartoon

Nevermind dude. A quick look at how selective he is with which posts he replies to and which ones he ignores tells you all you need to know.

He just wants to say no to religion, everything else he says is a result of that.

 

How many is too many? There were no doubt several Muslims who did applaud 9/11 but is a far cry from a majority. To say a majority of Muslims did paints an inaccurate and unfair pictures of Muslims as a whole.

 

Respect is good but at the sametime there are people who will react without respect or where beliefs clash. I posted an example earlier of where someone isn't showing respects to Buddhist beliefs and how many Buddhists are offended by it. Would you agree then that it would be proper for that person should live in fear of retribution from angry Buddhists?

For that matter if we are talking about Muslims and Buddhists. It was Muslims that blew up the Bhamiyan Buddhas. Now its true thos Muslims are now living in fear for other reasons but at the time I didn't hear a call from Buddhists or non-Buddhist that those Muslims should be attacked for their lack of respect to Buddhist beliefs.

 

You don't really HAVE to do anything dude. You can rape women and abuse heroine if you like.

You're absolutely correct in that tolerance and respect are two different things, because, for example, I don't have to tolerate disrespect. I can tolerate differences of opinion, but I can not tolerate disrespect.

No one is asking you to abide by the rules of Islam (not drawing the Prophet PBUH). The suggestion I made was that you have to respect peoples' beliefs - obviously to a limit. I respect that DaDakota does not believe in religion despite the fact that I completely disagree with him and find his method of pushing his beliefs on people to be less than tasteful. But I respect that it is an important decision in his life and that his his beliefs are very valuable to him. But if DaDakota walked into my house tomorrow and told me that all Muslims are animals, then that respect will disappear. You see, it doesn't have to be illegal. But that basic principle of respect for one anothers' opinions dissapears immediately. I can still tolerate him by asking him to leave my house rather than throw him out. But I would lose respect for him.

You know what's WITHIN that limit of respect? You painting the Prophet PBUH drinking a glass of water or whatever. You drinking alcohol. You not wearing a headscarf. Anything, do anything you like, it's your life, Islam tolerates it and even respects it - the Quraan blatantly states that there is no compulsion in religion. Keep in mind that most Muslims believe that it is a sin to do these things.

You know what's OUTSIDE that basic limit of respecting each others' beliefs? (1) Drawing the picture, (2) applying stereotypical features of terrorists, (3) implying terrorism, (4) doing so for your personal mini-test of whether immigrants will react to you pissing on their religion, (5) cashing in on the rift that you've created between Muslims and non-Muslims where your entire country lost a chunk of income.

I will live my life labeled as intolerant forever if I have to, but I simply cannot accept that this cartoonist showed the basic respect and courtesy which I have come to expect from humans and even some animals.

Again, it's not about what you HAVE to do, it's about what you should do. If you think that no basic respect for each others' beliefs should exist between human beings, then there's really nothing for us to discuss here honestly.

 

Agreed. I'm just coming at this from a question of whether something is illegal or a violation of an individual's rights. Both of these things are, and drawing a cartoon is not.

This is really key. In my mind, you HAVE to tolerate disrespect, even if it completely pisses you off, if the action is not illegal and has not violated your individual rights. This is why you can't go trying to murder people who have been disrespectful to you, and why such actions can't be looked upon as in any way excusable by society, regardless of what prompted them. I agree that the world would be a much happier place if we were all nice to each other and ideally, we would be - but to set that as an expectation and then giving yourself the option to retaliate against people who don't play nicely is a dangerous precedent.

I completely agree that you don't need to respect DaDakota in the slightest in that scenario - and if he marched into your house tomorrow and made such a statement, he would be breaking the law (unless you invited him in, which I don't see happening for some reason ). However, if DaDakota were to put that statement in print, thereby not breaking the law and not violating your individual rights, you legally need to tolerate his action. That is, in a way, what has happened here. The cartoonist did not break any laws (as you have already agreed with) and has not violated anyone's individual rights. Therefore, justice holds no claim on him and he "deserves" no ill treatment (except your withdrawal of respect, but that's a given). But absolutely, I think that most would agree that you wouldn't respect him. Neither would I.

Great - I don't really have much comment on individual things that are and aren't allowed. You clearly know much more about that than I do for your specific religion, and we Mormons have some ideals and standards that many mock us for on a regular basis. I get it.

Again, I've got no problem with you not respecting people for performing these actions. But it's the respect/tolerance issue again. Society says that those people must still be tolerated, even if not respected.

Well, then, there it is. I think you're expecting too much from people.

 

A better approach would have been to specifically call out the posters who you thought were asking you to believe or do what Islam says, and address them.

Beginning with "Sorry muslim guys" is pretty much lumping everyone in one group and as I said earlier, I have seen differences in opinions among Muslims even in this thread.

Again, response could have been tactful instead of confrontational.

As for your second point, of course moderators are allowed to participate in any threads with their personal opinions. However, the way they do it sets examples for others on this site, especially the new comers.

 

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I never once said you should follow the rules of another person's religion. Why are you trying to say I did? Please point out to me where I ever said that

Also, thanks for so generously grouping all of us together when it's pretty clear that I don't really agree with Mathloom on many points.

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I understand that you're a mod, but I quite clearly understand how a message board works. I didn't say anything to slcrocket except trying to show him that I was trying to directly address DD and not a particular topic. The topic was one thing, but I was just getting tired of DD's ignorant posts (him posting the nazi pic proves that point) being littered through this thread. I'd like for you to point to me which of DD's (non)responses proved that he was saying the same thing. DD never replied to my original post, or any of the others thereafter. All he said was "I agree" to slcrocket's post. Again, I didn't think that he was saying that. So, it's a little bit of a cop out for DD not to respond and then just say "I agree" to another poster. In addition, I don't think I said anything offensive to slcrocket whatsoever. If I did, I'm sorry. But honestly, R2K, I respect you a lot. In this instance though, you're kind of being a jerk unncessarily. Thanks for telling me I have my panties in a bunch

 

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Women are allowed to go. Thanks for having your facts straight.

 

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DD, your true colors have as well.

Please explain to me your posting pictures of Nazi's and trying to equate them with Muslims.

Also, please explain the "Muslims are uncivillized" comment.

Talk about true colors....

 

Re: Nazi rally.

I asked Mathloom why I should respect Islam, he posted a picture of a lot of people at an Islamic ritual.....

I said just because you have a lot of people that believe something does not mean you automically respect it....the example of that point was the Nazi rally picture.

Large amounts of people believing something does not add an ounce of validity to it.

Many Muslim dominated countries are uncivilized, uneducated and archaic in government and do not spread information freely......tons of the followers of Islam are not exposed to anything else, and thus, fall in line.....blocking the free flow of information on websites, television & Radio is bad for the growing world culture.

And I don't like religion, I think it is made up by man to control the masses......

I respect a personal choice anyone makes to follow or not follow a religion but I do not respect the rules or tenemants of any religion when they infringe upon the rights of others that do not follow it or think it is mythos.

I think the man making the cartoon of Muhammed had the right to make him look however he liked....without any fear of personal retribution.

If it bothered anyone personally, then they are the ones with the problem...not the guy with an opinion that was unpopular to a certain religious following.

I believe whole heartedly in freedom of speech and the rule of law protecting minority opinion as well as majority......

Does that clear it up?

Oh, and personally, I think it is a culture clash, but one culture is a lot more civilized and free thinking than the other, generally speaking of course.

DD

 

Just wanted to add that I've met hundred of Muslims and I have yet to meet one with this radical attitude. These radicals are a very minute percentage of the 1,000,000,000 Muslims.

There are many, many, people who follow different religions and are just as barbaric as each other. .

A lot of the posters on this forum have the problem of labeling groups of people from just a small population. Man,I can't stand stereotypes and labeling.

But go ahead continue, argue for the sake of arguing.

 

That pretty much sums it up. I don't think it's too much, and you think it is.

Just a note. Not tolerating disrepect (to me) = being pissed about it. That doesn't mean I go out and kill someone. But if in my heart I truly dislike the guy, I can enjoy his downfall. The reason is that although legal, his actions SHOULD be illegal IMO.

Also, there is basically no human more dear to us than the Prophet PBUH. Exercise your free speech, but if you expect that there won't be a few people willing to break the law to take 'revenge' for your drawing, that's being delusional. If you expect that seeing you curled up in a panic room won't put a smile on the face of everyone who hated how you used a right to be a dick, then that's also delusional.

What you can expect from me is condemnation of murder attempts, because to me, no justice will be as just as the one which will come later on, according to my beliefs. But till then, you can expect me to celebrate if I hear that this guy had to live the rest of his life in misery. Maybe my expectations are too high, but in any case, you treat other people like crap, then I think you should be treated like crap. No one can deny that this guy treated people of the Muslim faith like crap.

 

I totally agree but what I find troubling is the attitude from some Muslims that they would welcome the idea of a man living in fear for his life over a cartoon. To me that is a tacit support for the radicals since you might oppose their specific actions you are happy with the consequences of those actions, fear on the part of the intended victims.

Of course. I don't agree with DD that Muslims are more uncivilized and certainly those of other religions along with atheists have acted barbarically too but this specific topic deals with the reaction of Muslims.

I don't want to label a group of people but for me personally I am going off of the reactions of members of that group in this thread.

I will also say that the reactions of various members has different but the bottom line that I see is that all of them seem to be saying that this is the expected response. Various posters have differed in how they look at that response but it still seems to me that if anything it is the various Muslim posters are the ones saying that Muslims (although a small percentage) will get violent when something like this is done. That's Muslims themselves saying that.

 

Okay. I understand. Personally, I think what you said is sad, but that's because it flies in the face of my own personal belief set. But I get what you're saying.

 

I have been getting what he was saying before he repeated it the 100th time.

It's still pathetic and disgusting - to take joy in someone living his life in fear over a cartoon is not something I would think any religion in its true form or any "prophet" would condone.

I just hope that this is a view that is not supported by many muslims.

 

It's not. The prophet(pbuh) certainly does not condone any of this. There are specific hadith which counter Mathloom's view on the cartoonist. Mathloom's viewpoint of this IMO is just his personal opinion and not one that is based on religion. The prophet(pbuh) suffered much hate during his life but never cursed or wished any harm on his enemies. He always reacted in a peaceful manner and prayed that his enemies gain guidance. I will post the specific story and hadith regarding this once I am less busy, as I only have time for this post right now. Just to make it clear, it seems that Mathloom is just a passionate poster who supports his religion but everything he says should not be viewed as the norm among most Muslims. If the prophet(pbuh) was alive today, I guarantee he would be disappointed in Mathloom's stance to celebrate that the cartoonist is at fear.

 

1) Absolutely right.

2) Although I agree that the Prophet PBUH never wished harm on those who wished harm on him (with no good reason)...., you will not be able to justify that from Hadith. There are several instances in Hadith where the Prophet PBUH allegedly chose to retort rather than ignore. (Disclaimer: I'm not a believer in the authenticity of Hadith, but I do feel it necessary to pain an accurate picture of what appears in the hadith books today for those who are reading your post.)

3) You are right. I must admit, your last sentence has got me thinking. Although, I have to believe that the Prophet PBUH would make defamation of religious beliefs illegal.

 

As someone who was raised catholic, I find this one funny.

Would Wulff and Morgenthaler have to fear for their lives if this was Mohammed instead of Moses?

 

Just watching an interesting interview with the cartoonist on German TV. Seems like a very nice, intelligent, soft-spoken guy. He says they can't scare him because he is an old man anyway. They had to do the interview without people in the studio except for security personnel. The host asks him if he would do a cartoon of Jesus - he says he has done several already. He says he is aware that 99 % of all Muslims are peaceful and that they are not the ones he targeted with his cartoon. He says he is not a racist or xenophobic person. He says he has members of his extended family who are catholic, protestant and muslim. He says he advocates freedom of religion. He says that the motivation for him to do the cartoon was that representatives of the religion he portrayed in the cartoon attacked the democracy he lives in.

They also interviewed a representative of the Muslims in Germany. He criticized the cartoons, but also said that the reactions that led to deaths are overreactions.

Then they showed an interview with a representative of the protestant church in Germany. The guy says that he is against hurting people's religious feelings, however, that basically the Muslims who reacted violently proved Westergaard right.

Then Westergaard continues - he says he is not backing off - he says his cartoon was merely a reaction to what we have seen - bombs in the name of Islam everywhere in the world, intolerance toward other religions, etc.

Then they interviewed a representative of the Jews in Germany. He said that the guy was merely doing his job and using his right to freedom of speech (take that, Batman Jones) and that he applauds him for it.

Then Westergaard describes how he found out that there are plots to kill him. He says that he had to leave his house with his wife for almost a year, moving around from one house to another (remember, he is about 75 years old). He describes an event from a parking spot in a supermarket where all of a sudden two young arabic-looking men approached him and he got very scared. But then one of them said "Excuse me, are you Kurt Westergaard? Can we take a picture of you together with us?" and that was all that happened. The host points out that it must have been an experience that taught him that clearly not all Muslims are after him and he said yes and smiled. Then he describes how the Somali axe murderer tried to kill him in front of his grandchild. He says that he can understand the cultural background of the young man and that he does not hate him, he just believes he is a young man who has problems with his own identity and who is misguided. He says that Denmark had done a lot for the young man to try and integrate him (the attacker had been in Denmark for years already, getting subsidized by the state). He says he feels sorry for the guy.

The host asks him if he feels it was all worth it. He says yes, because there is a clash of cultures and we cannot back off and give up our right to freedom of speech. He says he was at Princeton giving a lecture on freedom of speech and that the protests of the Muslim students there were very vigorous, but that in the end, a young Muslim came to him and said while he disagrees with him, violence is not the answer and that it is important to have a dialogue. He smiles when he recounts that.

Very nice old man, if you ask me. His view is obviously influenced by what he has seen happening in Denmark. The guy seems somewhat stubborn, but definitely not hateful in any way, more like a wise old man.

 

Denmark holds 'Muhammad cartoon plotters'

Five suspected Islamist militants have been arrested for planning to attack a Danish newspaper that printed cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.

The men wanted to "kill as many people as possible" at the Copenhagen offices of Jyllands-Posten, officials said.

Denmark's Justice Minister Lars Barfoed said it was the country's most serious terrorist plot.

Four suspects - including three Swedes - were held in Denmark, and the fifth was detained in Sweden, police said.

The four held in Denmark were picked up in raids in Greve and Herlev, near Copenhagen, where police found an automatic weapon, a silencer and live ammunition, according to Denmark's security agency, Pet.

The agency's chief, Jakob Scharf, said the four held in Denmark had been planning to enter the building housing the Jyllands-Posten and "kill as many of the people present as possible".

He said an "imminent terror attack" had been foiled and described some of the suspects as "militant Islamists".

Mr Barfoed said in a statement that the plot was "outrageous" and described it as "the most serious attempt at terror so far in Denmark".

The publication of the cartoons, one of which depicted Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban, caused mass protests among Muslims across the world.

Muslims regard any visual representation of the Prophet as blasphemous.

Saudi Arabia recalled its Copenhagen ambassador, Danish firms were forced to scale back operations in some parts of the world, and gunmen raided an EU office in Gaza to demand an apology.

But many in the West have defended the media's right to publish the caricatures, and several European newspapers have republished some of the drawings.

Kurt Westergaard, the cartoonist who drew the image of the turban bomb, has been honoured with awards by free-speech groups, but he now lives under police guard amid death threats from radical groups.

He was the subject of an attempted attack in January when a Somali man got into his home armed with a knife and an axe.

And police across Scandinavia have arrested several groups of people in raids linked to the cartoons.

Three men detained in Norway in July were suspected of planning attacks to avenge the cartoons.

In September, a Chechnya-born Belgian was arrested after a small explosion in Copenhagen, which police linked to the cartoons.