Even luka went lower than he should. The ‘not athletic’ prejudice/misevaluation is very real even at the top level.
Not necessarily. Just take a gander at the extensive list of euros who greatly disappointed. Drafting is a gamble, no way around it.
I did. I also gandered at the extensive list of americans who greatly disappointed. You are just selectively looking at one list ignoring both the americans who busted(along with their proportion to the number of drafted) and the euros who did better than their draft position promised. I am sure you recall bargnani more often than Anthony bennett when you think about the busts, or don't recall that Giannis, Jokic and luka are selected behind many many america busts. If you look at top 50 per list(just to get a list of top players), number 1,3,4 are euros drafted at 41,15 and 3 behind many busts. Total of 9 euros in the top 50. If anything, you could say nba teams are not good at drafting euros, part of which stems from their inability to correctly assess skills and fundamental basketball knowledge vs atlethicism. If the outcome of something is not predetermined, it doesn't mean it is a gamble. In gambling, like casino games, the odds are fixed and there is nothing you can do to make your odds of winning above a certain percentage, which allows you to win in the long run. Drafting is making an educated guess on who in the future will be good. You can make a hell of a difference by getting better at your evaluation process.
Do we have any SOFs - Silas Only Fans. Like is that a thing? Does that exist? I think not..... Right?
Umm...Anthony Bennett is Canadian. I know you guys are sensitive but the facts are what they are what they are. Of the nearly 240 Euro player drafted since 2001 only 42 have had notable careers in the NBA {≈18%} with less than 10 having appreciably outplayed their draft position (relative to the average of American-born players drafted at the sane position) {≈4%}. Over 60% never even set foot in the NBA. That number goes even higher when you add those who only lasted a season or two. The the immutable fact is the flop/bust rate of Euros in the NBA far exceeds that of American born players. It is what it is. The NBA draft is a gamble because there is no constant by which the varying aspects of all prospects can be judged. Different leagues, different amounts of experience, different level of competition all add variables that are difficult to account for with any degree of certainty. Add in other unquantifiable factors like work ethic and passion for the game and even the most informed guess is still a gamble.
I am talking north american in general. Bennet is not particularly an important example. You can make the same point with many others. Also he went to University of Nevada. I am not sensitive about anyting. I don't give a **** if american players are better or not. They could be. That won't change the fact that your argument that eurobusts to justify Doncic and other euros going lower is flat out stupid. I am arguing against that, not who is better. The numbers you provided(don't know where to get them, a link would be helpful), makes my point even more. More than 60% did not set foot in the nba. So essentially about 85-90 of them were considered real potential nba talents. 42 had notable careers, 3 of them are generational players(jokic, giannis and luka) and none of them were drafted top 2, two outside of 10 and 1 of them in the second round. These numbers are very good. All in all that just says, evaluating european players, and how much their 'unatleticism' will effect their game, is not a strong suit of nba teams.
NBA is different from world basketball. Principles are different, schedules are different, player-coach relationships are different, player development is different, foul calling is different, offense and defense are different, fan, coach and player expectations are different... It's no wonder so many Euros end up as busts in the US.
Another aspect is nba teams used to draft established euros, which was a very bad strategy. Because while european training until 20 years old is far superior to the american system, once you get past that stage, there is a lot nba teams offer in terms of physical training and getting accustomed to the nba style of basketball. Now euros come to the league much earlier and I am 100% sure that their success rate will improve greatly compared to 10-20 years ago. It is actually a very good combination, spending earlier years in europe and coming to the nba about 20 years old. American players would vastly benefit from a such a strategy(go play in europe instead of ncaa).
Franz Wagner played for Michigan, does that make him any less German? Pretty aggressive tone for someone claiming to not be sensitive. That said, if you are going to challenge the facts at least get the argument right. You used an exceptional talent like Doncic to defend your belief that "prejudice/misevaluation" were primary factors in why euros, including Sengun, get drafted lower than where you think they should. I gave you objective evidence to the contrary. Sorry if that doesn't jibe with your preferred narrative. Lastly, for your last statement to have any validity you would have to believe that NBA teams routinely waste 1st and 2nd round draft picks on players they KNOW will never set foot in the NBA. Now that sounds "flat out stupid".
Sorry for the aggressive tone but you built things up by ‘you guys are sensitive’ etc. that was no different. for players like Wagner it is hard to call them a euro or American because he is a mixed product. But still I would say he is essentially a euro since he developed in Europe and played with alba Berlin. I wouldn’t call him a euro if he went to high school in the us. I gave many examples. Doncic is more striking because he is an exceptional talent with historic success at the highest non-nba level. I don’t see how doncic being taken after Bagley and ayton doesn’t make my point. If such an exceptional and already proven talent is snubbed, other euros will be for sure. you have a point about the 2nd round picks. But these are really the gambling ones in the true sense. The phenomenon I am talking about mostly occurs with the first round picks who are expected to play. You did not provide a link for the numbers. So I can’t even verify or do the analysis myself. lastly you are still trying to make it about the players. It is about drafters. If euros bust more that says something about the teams that draft them. If they had not drafted a euro, they would probably make a bad choice anyway or they are particularly bad about evaluating euros, both of which don’t validate your reasoning that more or less says ‘there were euro busts so they are more risky’
First I think you may have taken my "sensitive" comment the wrong way. You seem to have taken it as an indictment of character when what I meant was the issue of Euro players getting their just due or fair comparison is of much greater interest to those who follow/support Euro-based basketball than to those who don't. If you perceived it as an insult that was not my intent. As to the highlighted above, you are still presenting the rare exception as defining the rule. That's just flawed logic. For every instance of a "Bagley over Doncic" (Ayton was a justifiable call) there are several instances of: Killian Hayes over Tyrese Haliburton Aleksej Pokuševski over Tyrese Maxey Dragan Bender over Dejounte Murray Rade Zagorac over Malcolm Brogdon Tomas Satoranský over Khris Middleton Frank Ntilikina over Donovan Mitchell Mario Hezonja over Devin Booker Enes Kanter over Klay Thompson Veselý over Kawhi Rubio over Curry Miličić over Melo, Bosh, Wade etc, etc, etc... Drafting is not an exact science and teams often get it "wrong" but your suggestion that it is inordinately or unduly slanted against Euro players simply is not backed up by the numbers.
To be fair Sengün at least has potential to be a future all-star if he continues to improve and work on his defense. Lin on the other hand was an overachiever who was never going to be any better than what he had became
I am not saying or suggesting that draft selection is particularly slanted against euros. Quite to the contrary, if you read my previous post carefully, you'll see that I say, the teams that are bad at assessing euro talent, and probably they are bad overall at drafting. So if they are drafting bad euros, that should not make anybody lean towards not drafting euros(which was your suggestion in the first post, and which is all i am refuting). Thus all those examples you give support my point not yours. If you are good at evaluating talent, there is no reason you should shy away from euros, based on being unathletic or the skills to transfer. What I am pointing out though, the misevaluation of euros usually stems from 'unathletic' fear/prejudice. The Doncic case also does not compare to the examples you gave. these players are drafted without any pro experience, you don't have a chance to see them against grwon man and their skills are extremely raw usually. The information is little and there is more room for a mistake and mistakes happen. That is always possible. Doncic had all time success in european basketball, both in terms of the things he achieved and how young he achieved them. The same is true to a much smaller extent with Sengun. Both are drafted lower than they should mainly because they are 'unathletic' or 'slow'. despite being extremely skilled and have had pro success at very early age. As for sensitive, I am just sick of facing the 'you are sof, so you must be think that ...' or 'you are turkish, you are very x about y...' type of sentences that are not related to the actual conversation, that's all. A lot of people come up with zero arguments but just these sentences.
The rabid attacks against the SOF/LOF/KPJOF fans look rather silly comparing all that to the more than a decade of the Morey worship here on CF. Some of those who strongly criticize the OFs were some of the most fanatic Morey worshippers where any slight criticism of Morey was condemned and posters were even threatened with, you guessed it, being banned. Many even became instant expert statisticians and some are still posting statistics that are without context and, frankly, ridiculous. Come on everyone, many of you have been OFs at one point in time so give everyone a break. It's part of the entertainment of the NBA so maybe letting everyone express whatever their preferences should be part of the entertainment regime. Besides, many of the accusations are also confessions on this board. So there. Lighten up, folks.
