Thanks for the nice words, but I think you give me too much credit. For the past few months I've gotten into APBRmetrics analysis of NBA basketball. I'm just trying to employ their methods the best I can (my stats background is NOT extensive) in making arguments. I don't want to give the impression that I'm a stats expert. Tango, I think, fits that bill much better. I haven't done any extensive analysis on the draft, but basically my opinion is that we should primarily look for a big guard who can handle the ball and has a solid all-around game. I like Brandon Roy or Ronnie Brewer. I'm definitely in the big/all-around guard camp (eg. Roy) as opposed to the undersized shooting specialist camp.(Redick) . If we can manage to get rid of Swift or Howard, I wouldn't be against drafting a PF either. If we end up with a top 3 pick, we might have to go that route. These are all valid points. Hakeem's value over the course of the entire season (and, even more so, in the playoffs) was clearly much more than Yao's. I was merely comparing per-minute offensive numbers during the season. I think that, per minute, Yao this season has been more efficient/effective offensively overall than Hakeem was at the same age. Consider that Yao is a more efficient scorer (59.2 TS% vs. 55.5 TS%) and slightly less turnover prone (11.3 ToR vs 12.0 ToR). Moreover, Yao averaged more points per minute than Olajuwon, despite playing at a significantly slower pace (88 poss/48min vs 102 poss/48min). Finally, Yao is doing this while facing (in my opinion) better team defenses.
no man... that's just wrong... u might be able to compare the two "statistically".. but to say that Yao is a better Offensive player is absolutely not true.... no offense to Yao, he is a great player, but Hakeem was 10 times the Offensive player Yao is and 1000 times better on D...
Keep in mind I'm comparing Yao to Olajuwon at age 25. Hakeem had an evolutionary jump in his offensive game in the 90s.
Not really. Just an increase in minutes. His assists did jump, but his offensive repertoire never really evolved a whole lot from year to year (besides adding his face up 15 footer).
His turnovers also went down, and he became a more efficient scorer (specifically looking at his peak years -- 93 to 96).
his TOs actually went up (from an average of 3.1 the previous 8 years to 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 and 3.4) all higher than an season before except for 3.9 in 1990 .....again, an increase in his minutes can be a factor here
He certainly became a more efficient scorer (something I love about Yao... he's becoming the most efficient scorer in the league, in my opinion, and fast), but he could hit the midrange jumper during his second year. He didn't get all his points around the basket, not by a long shot, even then. One of the great things about Olajuwon was how he kept getting more and more ripped, putting on weight that was all muscle. It's something else we're seeing Yao do. While their frames are wildly different, they both have/had that capacity, which not every player has, to do that. I know it may seem like some of us are "defending" Hakeem. In the first place, he doesn't need that, lol! In the second place, what Yao did the second half of this season has any sane member around here going nuts with excitement. We're just trying to present the facts as we see them, and remember them.
You must be kidding me. For the Muresan, His best year: 14.5 ppg, 9.60rpg. Nothing to say!!! Not even close!!!
Why would you use pts/assists/etc /40 minutes to determine who's a better offensive or defensive player in a given year? While it's a measure of who's more effective per minute - the game is played on an aggreagate basis. Since Akeem played slightly more minutes and 22.8 pts & 2.1 ast vs. Yao's 22.3, 1.5, I'd be inclined to say that Akeem was a better offensive player (presuming that neither had a backup that was an even MORE efficient scorer than they were) in that he contributed more points, assists to his team on any given night. Not that there is a wide gap, mind you, and I'd be more inclined to call it dead even. Yao was more efficient per minute, that's true. But efficiency does not always = better in my book, especially when the numbers are this close.
I need to clarify. When I said is turnovers went down, I meant his turnover rate reduced. By turnover rate, I'm looking at the ratio of turnovers to sum of scoring attempts (fga + 0.44*fta), turnovers, and assists. It gives a better indiciation of how "turnover prone" a player is when he's involved in the offense. I judge the quality of a player based on what he does per minute or, better yet, per possession. Actually, more accurately, I judge the quality of a player based on what we can expect him to do per minute or per possession. Thus, for a player who hasn't played a lot of minutes (Chuck Hayes is an example), per minute numbers may not be a great predictor so we should be more weary. In contrast, I'd judge the value of a player based on his aggregate contributions. I think, at age 25, Yao is a better offensive player. But Hakeem's aggregate contributions on offense might have made him a more valuable player on offense over the course of the season, by virtue of playing more minutes.
There's no dispute here. Obviously, for you "quality" = efficiency = better. For me, I take value, since at the end of the day that's what you gets you W's and L's rather than efficiency. Though like I said, the numbers are so close that it's really a wash, and to take either measure, based purely on numbers, and to make a judgment as to who's "better" on offense is a crapshoot. Having watched them both each year I can tell you which one appeared to be more dominant over the course of a season, as well as which team was better even though it was fairly mediocre by most standards. And that decision is easy. I can also tell you that age 25 that was a down year for Hakeem - so arguing that Yao was "better" offensively in the abstract is very iffy. Arguing that his performance throughout the stretch that he played was better is a more accurate thing to say. Finally - if you gave Hakeem 30 games off in 1988, who knows how better or worse he would have been. So again, claiming that YM is flat out "better" is a very tenuous assertion.
Good points. When I say Yao is "better offensively" in a given season, I'm only looking at the quality of play versus the quality of the player. Considering other factors like the extra rest Yao got, etc. may lead one to conclude Hakeem was a more talented offensive player. But that doesn't change what he actually did, per possession. And that's all I'm looking at.
Hakeem needs no one to defend him. He is the best low post scorer and defender in the history of mankind (sorry Shaq). The fact that Yao is being mentioned in the same sentence with him and compared to him statistically make me excited enough already.
but u gotta remember that Yao has hit his peak 3 months ago... dont forget the way he played last year (I am really sorry to say that, I've always wanted us to trade him.. but after I've seen what he could do now, I feel stupid..).. but still, Hakeem could do so many more things than Yao... he has more dimensions in his game than Yao.. Hakeem was great, actually perfect, in Post-ups, fade-aways, midrange, spins and crazy- nasty stuff ... we've all seen what he's done with David Robinson in 95... all of that not mentioning his D... Yao is more of a "stationary" player or a "one dimension" player, Yao's body limits him to do specific stuff, Hakeem had more choices because of his body type and athelticism... Yao is still a great player and will always be mentioned in top 5 centers of all time, but again, Hakeem is Hakeem...
Amen to this. A year ago, this discussion wouldn't even be reasonable. Now the comparison is at least arguable. If he can stay healthy, and we can surround Yao with the right pieces, Clutch City will be back very soon.
Olajuwon got better supporting cast than Yao, much better. Clyde, Cassell, Horry, Kenny ... This list plus Yao look damn good.
