1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

So the Astros 2017 title is tainted

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rockets13champs, Nov 12, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    81,224
    Likes Received:
    81,333


    https://theathletic.com/1715036/202...m-astros-red-sox-investigations-out-of-court/

    Major League Baseball doesn’t think its notes from the Astros and Red Sox sign-stealing investigations are relevant to a lawsuit brought by daily fantasy sports contestants. The suit alleges that sign-stealing corrupted daily fantasy games and that those involved should be held responsible. The Red Sox and Astros are defendants in the case, along with MLB.

    MLB’s lead investigator, Bryan Seeley, argued in a court filing Monday that if the league must reveal greater detail from its interviews and findings, future investigations could be jeopardized. Lawyers for MLB also cited attorney-client privilege and other legal grounds in their objections.

    “If players, club officials or the MLBPA suspected that conversations with our attorneys or investigators about potential rules violations could be revealed, it would significantly hamper the Commissioner’s ability to exercise his investigatory and disciplinary powers under the MLB Constitution,” wrote Seeley, a former federal prosecutor. “Interview subjects would be much less likely to voluntarily engage in candid conversations if those conversations, or DOI’s (Department of Investigation’s) legal analysis of them, were at risk of being disclosed.”

    The plaintiffs requested a swath of documents pertaining not only to the sign-stealing investigation but MLB’s business structures and its relationship with DraftKings, where the games were hosted.

    Lawyers for the league suggested that the plaintiffs were overreaching — and, in essence, gawking.

    “Plaintiffs’ effort to turn this Court into a forum for disgruntled fans to air their grievances about Major League Baseball (‘MLB’) clubs breaking league rules has now turned to exploiting the discovery process to attempt to satisfy Plaintiffs’ curiosity about the contents of MLB’s privileged and highly sensitive internal investigation files,” lawyers for MLB wrote.

    Seeley wrote in his letter that the interviews the league conducted were not recorded and that no transcripts were made. Instead, attorneys from MLB’s department of investigations took notes of the interviews, to varying degrees.

    “As a general matter, those notes reflect the attorneys’ and investigators’ judgments as to the facts that should be recorded in light of their impressions and understanding of the developing factual record, including based on ongoing guidance from (fellow investigator Moira) Weinberg and me about the pertinent issues to address,” Seeley wrote. “The notes also reflect our overall strategy for conducting each interview and the investigation more generally.”

    League attorneys then prepared summaries of each interview with the information they deemed would be pertinent to commissioner Rob Manfred and any disciplinary actions.

    “Access to the interview notes, interview summaries and investigation memoranda from the Astros and Red Sox Investigations described above were (and remain) carefully controlled within MLB. Materials were marked as privileged and confidential,” Seeley wrote. “Apart from those individuals who conducted the investigations, only select senior MLB employees and external legal counsel have had access to the materials. They have not been shared with the interview subjects or other interview attendees from the MLBPA, or the Astros and Red Sox organizations, respectively. They have not been shared with anyone associated with other MLB clubs.”

    Per Seeley, the possibility the league would be sued informed the league’s movements and planning of the investigation.

    The plaintiffs agreed to file any response to MLB’s objections by Friday. Judge Jed Rakoff previously promised a decision on whether to dismiss the case by April 15.

    Seeley reaffirmed Commissioner Manfred’s recent comments to ESPN that the Red Sox investigation is in essence finished, although the findings have not been released to the public.

    “The Red Sox Investigation work is substantially complete, but the investigation remains open because Commissioner Manfred has not yet finalized or publicly released his conclusions as a result of the ongoing public health crisis,” Seeley wrote.
     
    RayRay10 likes this.
  2. J.R.

    J.R. Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    81,224
    Likes Received:
    81,333
  3. RayRay10

    RayRay10 Houstonian
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,557
    Likes Received:
    10,704
    Article on Gattis comments:

    https://theathletic.com/1720285/202...-cheated-fans/?source=dailyemail&redirected=1

    Evan Gattis on 2017 Astros: ‘We obviously cheated baseball and cheated fans’

    Evan Gattis, a retired catcher who was part of the now-infamous 2017 Houston Astros World Series team, has heard endless criticism from fans, opponents and media members about how that team cheated with its sign-stealing operation and how many people believe the Astros will never — and should never — live it down.

    And he doesn’t disagree.

    Unlike so many of his former Astros teammates whose attempts to explain or apologize have seemed forced or insincere, Gattis, who began his career with the Braves, spilled forth on The Athletic’s “755 Is Real” podcast this week with a brutally honest, profanity-laced mea culpa that sounded both full of contrition and awareness that apologizing may never be enough.

    In a two-part podcast interview that began with Gattis talking at length about his fascinating, Kerouac-ian journey to the Braves after four years away from baseball, he provided candid insight about the scandal that has tarnished the Astros’ 2017 World Series title.

    “I don’t think I can win the hearts over of anyone right now at all, or maybe ever,” said Gattis, 33, who had 96 homers and 293 RBIs in four years with Houston and retired after the 2018 season. “I don’t know how to feel yet. I don’t think anybody — we didn’t look at our moral compass and say, ‘Yeah, this is right.’ It was almost like paranoia warfare or something. But what we did was wrong. Like, don’t get it twisted. It was wrong for the nature of competition, not even just baseball. Yeah, that was wrong. I will say that.”

    Gattis said he felt especially bad for opponents who might have been facing the Astros for the first time — such as young pitchers trying to stay in the majors or older ones trying to get there. And for fans who “felt duped.”

    “For some players that we faced, that I’d never faced before or something like that, even selfishly we didn’t get to find out how good those people are — and they didn’t either,” Gattis said. “I think that was the one cool thing about playing in the big leagues, was just to find out how good you are, which I think is valuable. Everybody wants to be the best player in the ****ing world, man, and we cheated that, for sure.

    “We obviously cheated baseball and cheated fans. Fans felt duped. I feel bad for fans.”


    Gattis said he wasn’t asking for or expecting any sympathy and that he was glad Major League Baseball punished the Astros, although he hated seeing his former manager, A.J. Hinch, and general manager Jeff Luhnow, fired by the team owner after being suspended for one year by MLB.

    “If our punishment is being hated by everybody forever, then (so be it),” Gattis said. “And I don’t know what should have been done, but something had to be ****ing done. And I do agree with that, big time. I do think it’s good for baseball if we clean it up. But I really don’t know to this day, and I’ve thought about it a **** ton, know what I mean? And I still don’t know how to feel.

    “I’ll get ripped by somebody — ‘That’s not an apology’ — and if I do apologize, that’s still not going to be good enough. No ****, it’s not going to be good enough. I understand that it’s not ****ing good enough to say, sorry. I get it.”

    He said he harbored no ill will toward pitcher Mike Fiers, one of four members of the 2017 Astros who confirmed details of the sign-stealing operation to The Athletic’s Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich for their November 2019 story that led to MLB’s investigation. The other sources for the story asked for anonymity, but Fiers allowed his name to be used.

    “With Fiers, he had something to say, dude,” Gattis said. “It probably started out with him saying exactly what he said — some of these guys coming into the league, they don’t ****ing know yet that this **** goes on. And I respect that. And he had something to say. So he had to ****ing say it. And then we had to get punished. Because if not, then what? It’ll get even more out of control.

    When MLB investigated, players were given immunity in exchange for providing details, which led to penalties levied against the team — a fine and loss of draft picks — and its manager and GM. Critics, including players from many other teams including the Braves, have said Houston players should also face penalties.

    “I don’t know if immunity was right or not; I really don’t,” Gattis said. “Because I’m part of that ****. But I’m not in the same position as other people are now (who are still playing). And that’s the reason why I didn’t speak whenever the investigation was going on, because other people had jobs at stake, and I wasn’t going to be the guy that just went around and pointed a finger at myself and then pointed a finger at everybody else. I don’t think it was my place.”

    Others who lost their jobs in the fallout from the MLB investigation included Alex Cora, the Boston manager who was bench coach of the 2017 Astros and was found to have been complicit in the sign-stealing operation, and Carlos Beltran, who was fired as the New York Mets’ manager shortly after getting the job in the fall.

    Beltran was a 40-year-old, 20-year veteran on the 2017 Astros and was reportedly a ringleader in the sign-stealing operation. Some younger Astros implied he had too much gravitas for them to feel comfortable questioning it, even if they didn’t agree with using the sign-stealing system. But Gattis said no one made other Astros go along with the cheating scheme and that each of them was responsible for his own actions.

    He did, however, acknowledge that the insular nature of a team and its clubhouse chemistry made it difficult to rock the boat, especially on a team that was doing so well.

    “There’s this old experiment, the Milgram Experiment in social obedience,” Gattis said. “I’m not making a point that we were obedient and there was like a leader, like Beltran made us do everything or whatever. I’m not implying that at all. But the moral of the story is you can be put in a situation that is more powerful than yourself. And when that happens, and you’re in a group of people with already a pack mentality, it gets out of ****ing control. And it got out of ****ing control.”

    “I mean, it’s a tough subject, which … yeah. I think a lot of people feel duped. And I understand that.”

    The four, including Fiers, described a sign-stealing operation in which the Astros used video technology — a center-field camera and a TV monitor placed in a hallway adjacent to the Astros’ dugout — to steal the opposing team’s signs and a trash can next to the dugout that was banged upon to signal whether the next pitch would be a fastball or off-speed pitch.

    “We did (use the system),” Gattis said. “That’s a fact. And that’s on the wall. Part of me is really glad that that’s out there as public knowledge, and it’s accurate. … I think that’s what MLB kind of wanted us to do with the investigation, too — or at least I hope so — is to find out what the **** is going on.”


    Gattis confirmed a report that cited an anonymous source — said to be another member of the 2017 Astros — who characterized longtime former Braves catcher Brian McCann — Gattis’ teammate in Atlanta and again in Houston — as a player who was particularly opposed to the sign-stealing scheme and made his feelings known at least a couple of times during the season.

    “I could tell it was eating him up,” Gattis said. “He didn’t like it one bit. … He’s played so long, and he just understands what it takes to get to the big leagues, and he’s got a lot of respect for ballplayers. You could just tell (he was opposed to the cheating).”

    McCann, who returned to the Braves for his 15th season in 2019, has declined interview requests since retiring after a National League Division Series loss to St. Louis in October.

    Fiers, who was non-tendered by the Astros after the 2017 postseason, said members of that team were willing to go “above and beyond” and break rules to win.

    “Yeah, that’s very accurate,” said Gattis, who agreed with Fiers that the Astros got caught up in winning.

    “Oh, **** yeah, dude. Straight up,” Gattis said. “It was a powerful situation to be put in. Because I agree, nobody made us do **** — you know what I’m saying? Like, people saying, ‘This guy made us do this.’ … That’s not it. But you have to understand, the situation was powerful. Like, you work your whole life to try to hit a ball, and you mean, you can tell me what’s coming? What? Like, it’s a powerful thing. And there’s millions of dollars on the line and ****? And what’s bad is, that’s how people got hurt. That’s not right; that’s not playing the game right.

    “I don’t know how much of it was paranoia and how much of it was the fact that other (teams) were doing stuff. I know other teams might feel like we didn’t get punished enough, and we might feel like they didn’t get punished enough, and who knows? Who knows the right way to handle it? Is there a concise couple-of-sentences answer to what should happen? I have no idea.”

    Gattis concluded, “Yeah, it’s a little easier to see it being ****ed up afterwards. Also, after the experience — and don’t get me wrong, I’m very happy we won the World Series; the parade was incredible; it was a great time for Houston, after (Hurricane) Harvey and all this ****, and seeing one million people in the streets … don’t get me wrong, all these experiences were excellent. I was floored. But once that all fades, now it’s kind of different. Now it’s kind of, ‘OK, that happened, and we cheated. So it’s not … I mean, you can’t feel that good about it.”
     
  4. awc713

    awc713 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    3,064
    I’d like to report a murder



    Edit: was in response to
     
    RustyHarden likes this.
  5. Poloshirtbandit

    Joined:
    May 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,514
    Likes Received:
    623
    Went through that profile. Seems to have dedicated their life to trolling Astro players.
     
    awc713 likes this.
  6. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2001
    Messages:
    15,446
    Likes Received:
    7,545
    I’ve basically forgotten this was a thing for a couple weeks.
     
  7. marks0223

    marks0223 Astros STILL 2017 Champions
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    6,198
    Likes Received:
    5,525
  8. lnchan

    lnchan LeonardTX26
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    4,370
    Likes Received:
    5,537
    Some things I can't unsee... like the Texans offseason and this.
     
  9. PhiSlammaJamma

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    25,183
    Likes Received:
    4,011
    This scandal goes all the way to the president. I can't believe nobody investigated the center field renovation. Seriously. The Media are morons sometimes. But I'm here to blow it open.

    Scadalous Enron Chef creates Torchy Tacos>
    Astros order Code Breaker Operation 2016 >
    Minute Maid Centerfield renovation 2017 >
    Torchy's Taco Opens in Renovated area >
    Center Field Camera's installed in Torchy's >
    Torchy's = Los Pollos operation
    Present Barrack Obama seen at Torchy's in 2017>
    Astros caught cheating 2019
    Dots Connected.
    Above the Law.
    How high does the Astros Codebreaker go?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #3289 PhiSlammaJamma, Apr 12, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    24,510
    Likes Received:
    9,025
    I guess both the 2017 and 2018 titles will be tainted and have an asterisk.
     
  11. awc713

    awc713 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    3,064
  12. RKREBORN

    RKREBORN Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    3,646
    Is that the trashcan they used? It says Astros on it
     
  13. donkeypunch

    donkeypunch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2013
    Messages:
    15,891
    Likes Received:
    16,007
    I would continue to beat that thing to hell, regardless of mlbs bullshit hand downs.
     
    RayRay10 and RKREBORN like this.
  14. BigM

    BigM Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2001
    Messages:
    15,446
    Likes Received:
    7,545
    The only thing that keeps Bauer relevant is the Astros. He’s a clown.
     
    King1, RayRay10 and awc713 like this.
  15. arkoe

    arkoe (ง'̀-'́)ง
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    10,086
    Likes Received:
    1,217
    His ability to pitch into the outfield bleachers is always amusing.
     
    davidio840, RayRay10 and BigM like this.
  16. awc713

    awc713 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    3,064
  17. PhiSlammaJamma

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    25,183
    Likes Received:
    4,011
    Plausible. But the Dodgers weren't lighting up scoreboards like the A's during that decade. So I don't know. Usually, it's obvious when guys are cheating. Piazza is certainly going to get some scrutiny, but his career wasn't jacked like other steroid users and it probably would have been if he was using. This just looks like a reason to sell a book.
     
  18. msn

    msn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    11,372
    Likes Received:
    1,526
    Steroids and HGH didn't just turn 40HR guys into 70HR guys. They turned slap artists into guys with gap power. They helped pitchers recover better between appearances. They helped the injured get back to the playing field more quickly.

    But they didn't help losers not lose. Sorry, Dodgers. Y'all suck.
     
    Rock Block and SuraGotMadHops like this.
  19. Rock Block

    Rock Block Sorta here sometimes

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2001
    Messages:
    6,653
    Likes Received:
    7,600
    LOL Brady Anderson comes to mind.....
     
  20. smoothie_king

    smoothie_king Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    540
    Cant call it tainted as long as ground balls were being fielded under pressure, double plays were looking to get made under pressure, and rbi's was getting made.
     
    msn and AstrosRockets1818 like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now