Pgabriel & Puedlfor, Ya'll are happy with is A/TO ratio? Ya'll are happy with his focus when the other team has the ball? Ya'll think he impacts his team the way Kidd, or a younger Payton or Stockton did? Francis is a great talent and great player--but IMO I have not seen the leadership and focus I would expect. Even Marbury showed more in carrying his team to the playoffs, the guy cried when he secured them a playoff spot. I have not seen Francis that affected by anything related to team outcome. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what I see. Francis IMO has equal or more physical talent IMO than any PG since Magic--but is he a better player than Kidd today, GP of a few years ago, Stockton of a few years ago, Marbury today--I don't think he is. I would like nothing more than for him to prove me wrong about his mettle, will and focus on team goals--but that is how I see it. A greater individual talent than his actual court/team impact. Am I happy he was drafted and on the Rockets--absolutely, but I sure hope he is willing to get better.
Steve Francis will show just what he is made of under the control and direction of JVG. I expect only praise of Francis as he becomes the leader that every Fan wants him to be. The past is the past and fans should await the new Steve Francis, and expect only great things of him.
1.Steve is our best point guard ever so it aint no comparesion.The boy has mad skills and I wouldnt trade him for anybody out there.Why bring out a player who can barely guard the Iversons,Francis,Payton's.All of the top pg's in the league.J.R. Bremer aint nobody when you talk about point guards.Some of ya'll have seemed to forget so quickly about what Francis did to the top 5 point guards.25 points,8 dimes,7 glass cleaners, and about 3 thefts a game.Come on now ya'll complainin like Steve cant hold his own.The boy has it all together and I think who in a few years ocne he realizes he needs to utilize his teammates as well as himself.He will be a mix of a Gray Payton and a Jason Kidd.He might not grab tha triple double like kidd but he will be a threath in the open court and his defense will be something good to talk about. 2.What GAME WHERE YOU WATCHIN man ..............SUP MAN.............
Well said. Clock management and fundamentals stand out on offense. I think JVG will further improve our most coveted asset (D).
Do not make false comments that bring down your argument. You wrote a point guard shouldn't get a lot rebounds compared to his teamates. I wrote that arguably the two best point guards were some of the best rebounding guards in the history of the game making that part of your argument moot. I never wrote this proves me right or that it makes Steve a great point guard. I really pointed that out to expose the lengths that Steve detractors go to to criticize his game. It was a ridiculous point to make.
No. His assist numbers would rise cosmetically if we got better shooters, but he's never going to put up startling assist numbers. No. He is too erratic defensively - but playing defense at the point guard position is pretty hard because of the quickness of those who play there and human reaction times. Defense at the guard position is sooo dependent on a big man down low to cover you and seal off penetration. Not in the same way, but he has the ability to impact a team in a similar manner by serving as the catalyst of the offense. It won't be the same as Kidd's passing, Payton's low post play or Stockton's insane precision - but it can be near their level. Especially Payton and Kidd.
Thanks Pued, you know I am skepitical. For most of last year I wanted to believe SF's APG and A/TO would improve with better players/better system around him--but then I studied Marbury and others PGs individual stats across a wide range of situations (different systems/different levels of talent around them) and concluded these stats are more of a product of the player than the situation. But I do hope you prove more on target in your assessment than I do.
Because while he's a dynamite athlete, he sucks as a basketball player. While he's not a terrible point guard, he's not all that great either. His style of play is better suited to the pre-zone NBA. Since I'm in Dallas, I tend to compare him with Steve Nash. Nash is lightyears ahead of Francis in PG skills - he's a much better passer, reads the floor better and is a much better outside shooter. Nash looks to get the other players involved first but he will step up and take the shot - especially the 3-pointer - in order to seize the offensive momentum from the opposing team. Francis relys on his athleticism to carry him. That's why he consistently makes the same dumb mistakes over and over - mistakes such as driving into the teeth of the zone and jumping up in an attempt to draw a foul. He tries to out leap or out quick people and when that fails, he usually turns the ball over. For a point guard, his assists are low while his turnovers are very high - not a good combination. Finally, he has an erratic jumpshot which means that he is ineffective at punishing the opposing team for collapsing into oa zone around Yao. He is athletic as hell however. He can run jump and rebound better that most of the PGs in the league but that's not what this team needs in order to take that proverbial next step up the ladder.
There is no way I'd take Nash instead of Francis. Nash showed his limitations in the SA series--just couldn't make plays when his team needed him to, in fact the back up (Van Exel) is the one that kept the Mavs in the series. Nash is a very good player, but like Bibby and Parker those guys have it a lot easier than Francis does with the teammates they have. You sub either of those guys with Francis and the Rockets are worse, and probably the other team is better. Francis is also just as efficient as Nash in shooting--both at 1.30 PPS, any edge Nash has in shooting is balanced by Francis ability to get to the line. None of these 4 play a lick of defense so no advantage there. I am a sometimes critic of Francis, but only Kidd, Marbury and maybe Payton are IMO PGs that are better than him. Nash or a healthy Baron are fighting for the 5 spot.
PPS is a BS statistic. It is heavily weighted in favor of guys that get to the line because it is really PPFGA. Since there is no official FGA when you are fouled, it skews everything and hides how many shots you are really putting up to score. I don't give any more weight to PPS than I do to /48 stats. They can give you weird results. A guy that plays one minute and gets fouled in the act of shooting, or even better intentionally fouled at the end of the game and makes 1/2 will have 48pts/48 and a PPS of infinity.
It isn't really a BS statistic any more than any other statistic. Shooting% doesn't reflect layups other guys create, you don't get an assist when your compadre blows a lay-up--all statistics have imperfections, but I would argue PPS is a useful one, equally as useful as say FG%. PPS or not, no way would I trade Nash for Francis. Nash has the advantage of being the 3rd and sometimes 4th guy on his other team the opponents are most trying to stop. Dirk, Finley and sometime NVE creates openings for him that just would not be there in Houston--and I like said in the playoffs when Nash's team needed him to be the creator he could not do it--they had to turn to other guys. For Houston, Francis or Yao was always the key object of the defense--this is going to color any statistical comparison between these two players.
Oh, I wasn't arguing that I would trade Francis for Nash, just that I don't like the PPS statistic. Here is the list of leaders of PPS. Brad Miller, Corey Maggette, and Andre Kirilinko are all very high on the list. Not exactly offensive powerhouses. I think adjusted FG% ((pts-FTM)/FGA/2) is a better stat, though it has its flaws as well.
Athletically, Francis is superior when compared to Nash. But, Nash is much more effective at playing the point. Having watched both of them play against each other, I've concluded that Nash plays a more complete game because he isn't as athletically gifted as Francis. He compensates by playing smarter basketball - moving without the ball, setting up teamates, penetrating and drawing defenders to him, etc. I guarantee that if you put Nash on this team with Yao, you would have a deadly duo. He'd consistently get the ball to Yao in transition and he'd punish the opposing team with jumpshots if they collapsed in the zone around Yao. Francis is more like Van Excel in that he thinks he can do it all by himself. That's why he flies into the teeth of the zone again and again and again never looking to pass. He also vanishes whenever he's not handling the ball - it's rare to see him cutting to the basket after he's fed Yao in the post. Like all great athletic players, he relies on his speed and agility far too much and does not appear to have grasped many of the nuances of playing the point. Like Van Excel, when he's bringing the ball down the court he's looking to score first and pass second. As for Nash running down against SA, I lay the blame on Don Nelson. Because the Mavs have nothing at center or PF, Nash, Fin, and Dirk play an ungodly number of minutes during the regular season and come playoff time, it begins to catch up with them. After grueling series against Portland and Sac, Nash finally ran on empty against SA. He also has problems with speedy PGs like Parker and Bibby but a lot of that is due to the fact he has no center backing him up. Head to head last year, I feel that he clearly outplayed Francis which is a major reason why the Rockets were swept by Dallas. I guess that if I were to rank PGs, I'd put Nash up there with Payton and Kidd and ahead of Marbury and BD.
A 7'5" center getting out in transisition. I don't think so. Nash is a better shooter than Francis, so that would compliment Yao more, I will give you that. The only athletic ability Van Excel relies on is his quickness. He and Francis are two totally different players. But as far as him passing the ball, look up the stats, Van Excel is better in assists in his top years, and that's not having the luxury of playing with Dirk, and Finley. The guy averaged nine assist in Denver of all places. That's just silly, especially in front of Marbury. Maybe Francis and Davis, but not Marbury.
Oh yes! Yao can run the floor quite well for someone his size but you'd never know it from the type of offense he was stuck with last year. Ask yourself: "How many times did you see Francis ignite a fast break or push the ball up the court to a streaking player? This is a standard play for Nash. My God, he's even hit Shawn Bradley on the fast break! If Bradley can run a fast break, surely Yao can as well. He's a lot like Francis in that he also relies on his athletic skills. That's why the Mavs offense works better with Nash at the point than with Van Excel. Unlike Nash, Van Excel can take over a close game with his scoring ability as he did during the Portland series. However, unlike Francis, he's playing in an up tempo offensive system that emphasizes passing and shooting and not iso. Not so. Last year was the first year that Marbury actually played up to his ability and potential - he finally got "it". The same thing has yet to happen for Francis. The fact that it took a strong coach to make it happen for Marbury gives me hope that JVG will do the same thing for Francis. Nash has been playing at a superior level for quite some time now and that's why I rank ahead of Marbury. I will admit that Marbury's upside is greater than Nash's as is Francis once he gets his head screwed on right.
I agree with pgabriel, it is one thing to argue Nash is better than Francis--personally I think no way, but it is another to argue he is better than Marbury. Marbury was at worst the 2nd best PG in the league last year. Marbury on Dallas would make their offense frightning.
Nash and Kidd both run teams that play mainly fastbreak basketball, Francis doesnt need to run a great fastbreak because the team doesnt play that style of game. If he wanted to get his assist stats up get someone to teach him how to throw an entry pass and its all over people.
