My favourite player is Francis, and I just love his game. So I just have to ask. Wich players would you rather see as our starting point guard (realisticly)? No Kidd, no Payton.... Be realistic. IMO Francis is currently the 3 best point guard in the L. But of course I love him much more than Payton and Kidd... So fun to watch and of course he's a Rocket... You guys got to realize that there isn't many good "prototype pguards" anymore. The future is Francis, Arenas, Marbury, Nash and so on. All scorers. I just have to ask who you would rather see running our point instead of Francis? I will take Francis over anybody. Even Kidd and Payton, because they are only getting older and they won't be better than they are now. I can't realisticaly see a better backourt than Francis/Mobley (wich is a great one). They ARE getting cred as being one of the best backcorts in the L. And with Yao being more dominant next season and Van Gundy as the new coach, I don't think we will see so much ISO, and we will see more shots for Yao and less for Cat. I think it will work out great with the team we got right now. I can't think of any team in the L. that has better potential than the Rockets. And people are bashing on Francis because of TO, and I can understand that... but Kidd was first in TO with Francis right behind him. And Marbury, Arenas, Terry, Kobe, Pierce, Iverson are all close behind Francis. People shouldn't bash too much because of the TO, cause they are all very close in TO. The REAL problem is D. but as said earlier, it will be even more difficult guarding T-Mac, Kobe, Pierce and so on. The best fit for him is PG. No doubt in my mind. Francis and the Rockets are the future.
When attempting to decide whether Stevie is overrated, you must only ask one question: can he run a fast break? What kind of ****ty PG can't run a fastbreak? It's the perfect situation for a distributor. If you can't then... then you need a new position.
Let's add Nash to that group. Also assume that the Sonics would not want him b/c: A) he is not the shooter Ray Allen is and B) the Sonics like many other teams would not or do not want a PG who does not know how to: 1) Dribble the ball 2) Make good decisions/be smart 3) Make teammates better 4) Push the ball up the floor 5) Play any form of D 6) Protect the ball 7) Run a fast break OR 8) Be a leader All 8 of those are necessary if you want to be a PG. You must do all of them well to be considered a good PG. Ironically enough, those are the 8 areas Francis most needs to improve. Which explains why he gets little respect. Do you think on any given night our opponents say "holy ****, we are facing Francis tonight. What are we going to do?" HELL NO, he is not a big threat nor is he feared. He got off to a great start by getting to 30 or more points 5 times in the first month of the season, however, it took him the next 4 1/2 mos of the season to get the next 5. No one fears him or Mobley. They are the only constant for the last 4 years now and have not so much as made the playoffs. If the Wolves did not make the playoffs 4 years, Garnett would hear it. If Orlando didn't make it T Mac would hear it. Nature of the beast, he wants to be #1, but he cannot get the team there with his skills. Time to move on.
Part of the problem is you lay out any criticism of Francis and all sorts of people come out of the works who say "stop hating" as if he were Jesus almighty. Francis is a great talent, a great or at least close to great player as well. I can tell you what irks me about him sometimes a) he makes more than a fair share of fundamental mistakes because he seems to be going for the flashy play, b) to me he doesn't translate his individual skills consistently into team success as well as he could. When Francis’s shot isn’t falling he doesn’t seem to be determined to help the team in other ways the way the legends of the game did. Francis has the gifts of an Isiah, Kidd or Payton, more physical gifts than Stockton--but I have not see the fire, win at all cost attitude, and leadership. It is a whole lot more fun to rout for and respect a guy with less physical talents who is a close to great player, than a player with all the physical gifts in the world who also is an almost great player when it comes to team success. In sum, Francis has to prove he can make his teammates better and lead them somewhere before he should be considered an elite player in this league. I am routing for him to show he belongs, but it is up to him to prove it.
Heh... the best part about being called a "Steve-hata" is that I want him to succeed very badly. How could that possibly be hate? I know what they mean, but I wish they'd choose their words better.
Part of the problem with that is that the criticism of Francis is often the most moronic and stupid thoughts ever expressed through the English language. It's hard to respond to such ludicrous criticisms without some vitriol. "Francis is jealous of Yao, he doesn't want him to succeed - so he's not giving him the ball" Bull****. "Francis doesn't make his teammates better." Only two players in the entire league make their teammates better - Shaq and Duncan. And that's it, no one else - while it would be nice if he were included in that lofty group, but it's not a terrible criticism. "No one fears [Francis] or Mobley" The defenses other team's play seem to speak counter to that. Francis has flaws, but when people invent such bizarre criticisms - it's hard to take that seriously. Especially when most of the criticizers are merely attempting to prop up Yao or Mobley by bringing Francis down with such criticisms.
to what? who in your mind brings teams to the playoffs on their own that we could get for francis? hell, tmac can barely do it in the east, kobe struggled (although with admittedly the worst supporting cast in the league outside of the occasional denver lineup last year). steve is a top 12-14 player. those guys don't singlehandedly lead teams to the playoffs (although we've been very close in a horrible conference). i don't see anyone raising him above 12-14 in the media. he has faults. if he had none, he could be higher, but he couldn't ever crack the top 5 b/c even with all his physical gifts, he doesn't have what the top 5 have. as for game ending shots before last year, off the top of my head, he hit the game winners against utah and detroit 2 years ago. for a shorter version of my post, just read what Pued said again.
Good post Puedlfor, That 's exactly why I get tired of the Francis criticism. He is expected to be superman. He doesn't make his teamates better?? Who is he supposed to make better. Cato's lazy ass. Eddie Griffin's underachieving butt. Is Francis supposed to make Mo Taylor rebound. Is he supposed to keep Glenn Rice healthy. I don't know what people expect. I'm not going to be a total homer and say the Rockets weren't dissappointing this year, because they were, but in Steve's second season, a year of rebuilding, the Rockets won 45 games, and idiots on this board try to give most of that credit to a broken down Olajuwon. He led that squad in assists, scoring and was second in rebounds in front of Kenny Thomas, Mo Taylor, and Kelvin Cato. He had an injury filled season last year, and the haters started to come out and say he wasn't playing through migranes. He spent this season adjusting to Yao, taking less shots towards the end of the year, and people still call him selfish. Maybe if he tried to do more scoring instead of listening to the haters the Rockets could have made it. Steve has flaws, but most people on this board have unrealistic expectations. I also find it hillarious that one of the people who posted that Steve didn't make it to the playoffs and that's the bottom line is one of Chris Simms' biggest defenders.
I'm not trying to change the subject or anything, but this has really been getting to me. I don't understand how so many people can be so upset with last season when we were the 2nd most improved team in the league (that could be wrong but I heard it several times throughout the season from the commentators, and I heard it very close to the end of the season). Plus we were only one game out of the playoffs. I think people thought that just because we had a rookie Yao, we were supposed to be like 6th seed or something. Anyways, back on topic, I was going to reply to TheHorns and haven, but francis4prez and Pued already did it for me
Haven, francis4prez, Pued, just to help me a little bit to see the other side, tell me, what does Francis do well? Before you say rebounding let me state that as long as he ranks in the top 2 in rebounds on this team, they will go no where. 1) Your PG should never out rebound your center or PF. 2) If he is getting a defensive rebound anywhere in the pain, he is out of position. It is tough to start the break from under the opponents basket, especially when dribbling or pushing the ball up are 2 areas you do not excel.
The reason we were all so disappointed was because our team had more experience. The young team excuse didn't apply anymore; we were "the greatest team ever assembled" or whatever. With a low post presence, and the backcourt play of Mobley and a healthy Stevie, we were supposed to be a lock for the playoffs. CD basically guaranteed it. That's why I'm disappointed: more broken promises. Stevie is a good guard; Houston fans are just pretty fair-weather. Because Stevie hasn't led us back to the playoffs, we get on his case and say it's his fault. There's no hate, we just expect more.
Yeah, that Magic Johnson was terrible at running the fast break. What an idiot grabbing 7 boards a game for his career. And Oscar Robertson, what a waste of a talent, averaging a triple double, that's waaaaaayyyyyyyy to many rebounds. Unbelievable the lengths people go to criticize Steve.
I agree with this. However.... This is not true. Duncan, Shaq, Garnett , Marbury, Kidd all make their teammates better. Even John Stockton at age 40 made his teammates better. That's what happens when you're a good passer.
ok, he can get a 17 foot pull up jumper against any pg in the league and he can hit it. he can drive on virtually any pg in the league. once he is driving, he can absorb contact and finish very well or get big men in foul trouble and go to the free throw line a lot. despite what people say about his vision/decision/playmaking ability, he gets 6 assists somehow. and they are not cheap assists like watching a guy run off a pick, handing it to him, and letting him hit the shot. they are (as have most assists been in the rudy T era) earned from drawing a double team and kicking it out to the man you just got open. and we are not a great shooting team nor a high possession team, making it even harder to garner assists. he shoots 3 pt and ft's decently. he hit a multitude of game winning or game tying shots. he gets 1.7 steals a game i think. notice i didn't say he was good at defense, but 1.7 steals is 1.7 steals just as much as 3.7 turnovers is 3.7 turnovers. he plays all out every night and he stops shooting on the nights he is off. and you can say rebounding doesn't count. first off, it's not as if we are a up tempo team being held back by steve getting rebounds. do you remember any up tempo teams under rudy? i don't. that tells me he is the one who discourages pushing the ball, not steve. secondly, we do not have a great rebounding set of pf/c's. steve can't just run to halfcourt and hope we get a rebound. we finished 3rd in rebound % b/c we have an excellent rebounding pg, a good rebounding sf in posey, and an amazing rebounding backup C in cato. we gang rebound and it is successful. so since his rebounding doesn't take away fast breaks that we aren't doing anyway and it helps keep offensive rebounds from the other team, it's a good thing. he also gets offensive rebounds which are great. and finally, we don't suck when he's playing, while we do when he doesn't. that's what he does well.
But he's not getting rebounds because he's out of position - he's getting rebounds because he's in better position than anyone else. It's also why he's such a good offensive rebounder. So - rebounding. As to what he does well : Shooting. His shot is very good. He penetrates fearlessly, slashing towards the rim with reckless abandon, again, and again, and again. we pretty much won the first Lakers game because of Francis's abililty and willingness to get to the lane again and again. Offensively, he's tough to guard because of his quickness and his ability to hit a shot if you step off him. He creates shots for others. We have a lot of guys who can't create their own shot - Cato, Rice, hell - everyone but Francis, Mobley and Yao after the 28&17 Spurs game(but not before). He's the spark and catalyst of our offense, which is why it sputters - because he is not a very smart player at times, at others he plays like a genius(but as often as we like). He's got faults, he has a long way to go to improve - but some of the criticism's are ridiculous - and the notion that there are a ton of point guards better at running a team than Francis is hyperbole.
Interesting point, hope you read my entire post, buin the event you did not: 1) Johnson and Robertson could both push the ball up the floor even when rebounding. Francis cannot do so when he has a head start. 2) You just compared Francis to the best ever PG 2 of the top 3 ever. Francis is not in the top 3-4 of today. Robertson averaged 9.5 assists per game for his career, Magic over 11. It can be argued they did some of the other things a PG should do. You want to still make some comparisons? I will give a fellow Horn a mulligan for such an absurd post since its after 10 pm.
Did you not right this???? This is the only point I'm responding to. Secondly, who on the rockets team finishes the break well??? Before Posey came along, who was Steve supposed to get the ball out to on the break besides Mobley. Steve and Mobley run a nice fast break, and now Posey, other than that, the Rockets haven't surrounded Steve with players who finish fast breaks.
Is that the only thing I wrote? There is more to the point then your selected portion. If you wish to respond to what I said then respond to it all. Do not omit a portion of my complete statement as if it was all I said. Are you a writer? This reminds me of what they do to create a story or quote for the paper.
