So it begins - Opposition to Mosque Projects Across America

With the amount of blood that's been spilt in the name of Christianity, you have little moral highground to speak from. If its a game of which religion has been responsible for more deaths unjustifiably, then I think you'd be better off conceding than actually going down that road.

Secondly, I find it amusing that basso and yourself lack any true argument to make against the bigotry being spread against Muslims in America. Mosques arent being targeted out of objection to laws in foreign lands (and if they were thats absolutely rediculous which is an argument for another time), but rather as a result of an environment created, by and large, by your political ideology that castigates all Muslims in a single solitary brush. Basso/your inability to respond to that in any meaningful way only substantiates just how drunk you both are on the Muslim boogeyman kool aid.

I can tell you that personally I hold absolutely no grievances against Christians. In fact, you'll find in many threads I defend what I see as unwarranted attacks on the Christian faith. But in continually espousing hate-filled rhetoric, conservative Christians paint themselves as intolerant racists who are unable to adapt to the dictates of being a part of a multicultural, pluralistic society.

 

How does pointing out that in many Muslim countries where the Sharia is actual law, homosexuals and women are discriminated against equate "hate-filled rhetoric"? It is a legitimate concern to raise as Islam spreads across the Western world. Exactly because we want to keep the society multicultural and pluralistic and as free of discrimination as possible, this needs to be flagged as a potential issue.

Who are the preachers in these mosques? Do they preach peace? Or do they preach that women have to walk around in mobile jails, stay at home, and that homosexuals should be put in jail or killed?

How are these not legitimate questions to ask, considering how Islam is practiced in many countries around the world? And I see that Islamic people, and even young people who grew up in Europe (vaids_13, I am not from the States) have the same mindset regarding women and homosexuals. If that is what they learn as part of how their faith is practiced, then I do not want that practice of the faith to spread any further. Does that make me the intolerant one, if I want something not to spread because at least part of it is preaching intolerance? I don't think so.

 

Expect cherry picking of your post and more attempts to derail the main topic, instead of any attempts to respond to it as a whole.

All these threads about Muslims are nearly identical.

 

You have already been exposed as a fraud when you were New Yorker and you continue to display that you are simply not the sharpest tool in the shed. You merely post for the attention, and you admitted as much in the past.

If you don't see how the first part is relevant to answering your question in the second part, then you really are as stupid as you have been acting here on the forum.

 

I must point out that it's not accurate to say it's Islamic policy. It's the policy of Muslim lawmakers.

I know you didn't use the word Sharia, but I didn't want people to make the mistake of thinking:

1) Sharia = Islamic God's law (Sharia as you know it is at least 90% man-made).
2) That the Quran tells Muslims to kill homosexuals.

In the Quran, the story is that God created a natural disaster because He (excuse my crude wording) told the homosexuals that what they're doing is unnatural and it is a mistake, and after they essentially said "F you" He created a natural disaster which killed them.

For me, it boils down to one thing: we (humans) aren't allowed to judge people like that in Islam.

It's unfortunate that there are still a couple of countries who are stupid enough to misunderstand this.

Also, I find it highly amusing that an entire country be called "Muslim". Furthermore I find it extremely amusing that a government be called "Muslim", especially considering that those governments are in place through a breach of their own Shariah law.

(This wasn't directed at you really, just making a general observation!)

 

Don't you think it's odd that you're preaching tolerance while saying that there should be a gay bar with alcohol and pork chops for Muslims?

You do realize that a Muslim eating pork has absolutely nothing to do with tolerance right? Tolerance is a Muslim who does not eat pork, yet has no problem with anyone who does eat pork. A Muslim who eats pork is simply a Muslim who is in breach of the Quran, it doesn't say anything about his tolerance.

 

1- 'hate-filled rhetoric' was in reference to the statements of conservative Christians, not yourself and basso. Read the sentence in context. It spoke to the main point, which was the topic of this thread.

2- legitimate concern? how many Muslims in the west are calling for an implementation of what you and basso mentioned? Iran, the Taliban, and "Muslim" countries have never formed a running commentary on Islam, and your harping on that point along with basso is an atttempt to deflect from the point of this thread, which is the 'hate-filled rhetoric' that the conservative Christian right continues to aim at Muslims. Iran, the Taliban, and other countries like them do not typify what Muslims want to see from the world. In fact, most Muslims criticize those two countries heavily for their religious excesses.

1- I have yet to see any evidence that says Muslims in the west are actively espousing for throwing anyone off of cliffs or the death penalty for any crime.

2- I've never been to Europe so I cant speak to the mindset of young people their regarding women and homosexuals, but we have to distinguish between what we see as a mindset we disagree with versus a mindset that poses a physical danger to those around us. An individual believing that homosexuality is morally wrong may not jive with what you believe, but Muslim youth in Europe are not alone in that belief at all. And that is the difficult part of this entire discussion- a belief of something being morally incorrect being aggregated as somehow equated to a physical threat to everyone in the west.

1- There's something called the "principle of perpetual extension," and it is when one civilization/culture/social norm becomes the standard by which every other one gets judged. This principle invariably leads to the tendancy of speaking in universal terms, but from a particular cultural/ideological, or historical perspective. Your particular understanding of something, and indeed the dominant social/cultural understanding of something is simply an understanding and does not constitute an ontological reality by which every human has to be put to a litmus test.

And that is the trouble once again with your objections. "Preaching" intolerance has to be qualified by concrete objections of intolerance in the west.

Frankly, I hear far fewer homophobic rants, abortion zealots, and examples of what you would call 'intolerance' in the Muslim community than I do on any right-wing radio show.

2- Muslims seeking to 'live Islam' have never understood living islam to mean rigidly adhering to scripture in the absence of interpretation. Interpretive, and even adoptive changes, occur by way of internal dialogue and discussion. The fact that Muslims have a moral paradigm that is influenced by Islamic scripture is not a matter of dispute, but the understanding and process by which that moral paradigm affects their politics and daily life is an entirely different point and is being negotiated, refined, and contextualized by the day.

Muslims in America are, on the whole, more educated than the laymen. Their political affiliations are far more liberal, and they integrate at a very high level, with a number of Muslims joining the military, working actively politically, and holding positions in corporate America.

 

Reading comprehension: I spoke about Muslims tolerating gay people around them and people who eat pork around them. I was not talking about making Muslims do this. That's one of my issues here: I have seen Muslims being welcomed with open arms, and then, instead of reciprocating by respecting the customs of the people who welcomed them, they started trying to force these same people to behave like them, and insulted them for not doing so (intolerance toward others drinking alcohol, being gay, eating pork).

 

I didn't even read the "hate-filled rhetoric". But harping on Muslims' intolerance does not deflect from the topic of this thread: People oppose the spread of Islam because Islam as it is currently practiced in many countries of the world simply contains unacceptable elements of intolerance which are incompatible with the freedoms of the western world. This might sound harsh, but is the truth. And we are not only talking about Iran and the Taliban. Look no further than the "religious police" in some areas of Indonesia, the persecution of homosexuals even in a seemingly "liberal" Muslim country such as Dubai, etc. etc. etc. This gives people a right to be skeptical and to ask questions - not only a right, but if they want to make sure they keep their freedoms, they better be asking these questions before it is too late. I would agree that it does not give them a right to "hate-filled rhetoric", but as I said, just because a few people go overboard in their rhetoric doesn't mean there aren't legitimate concerns.

Even a fanatical Muslim zealot such as Mathloom admitted that 90 % or something like that of Islamic literature are funded by Saudis, who represent the most fanatical and backwards-oriented interpretation of Islam. Now if that is true, then it seems pretty obvious that any new mosques would likely rely on these same teaching materials, and that the Saudi fanatics would have the most means to install preachers who follow their way of thinking. If that is not a cause for questions and concerns, then what is?

I have seen and heard examples of Muslim intolerance first-hand, and I am talking about seemingly regular people. It is a lot more common than idealistic Muslims would like to admit.

So you admit that most Muslims believe that homosexuality is morally wrong? But you don't think that at least a significant percentage of them will want to take action based on that belief?

Make that same argument to the governments in Saudi-Arabia, Iran, Dubai, to the Taliban, to the "religious police" in Indonesia, when I want to behave in their countries like I would in my country. My point is: What you are saying is right, but you are only saying it to further the agenda of Muslim expansion. If you were serious about it, you would have to make that argument in the other direction as well.

I don't listen to right-wing radio shows, but I am sure there are plenty of idiots among those people as well.

That is part of what gives me hope about Islam, but it is also part of the danger of it - one doesn't know in which direction the pendulum will swing - toward even more intolerance or toward the 21st century, after all.

You mean, like our posters BEAT LA and asiddiqui?

 

Certainly applies here as well:

Spoiler

 

I actually wrote up responses to your entire refutation, but then I re-read it and thought about responses you'd have to them, and then counter-responses that I'd have, and then it occurred to me that its not worth the time or effort to go into this cycle with you.

At this point I'm opting for Sweet Lou 4 2's stance and I'll leave it at that. Peace.

 

What is the relevance of how Islam is practiced in Iran to whether an American mosque should be built in New York, Tennessee, and other places? Is there any evidence that American Muslims encourage stoning gay people or any of the other stuff that's been brought up in this thread?

 

^ THIS

Thank you Major for some common sense.

 

I have ATW on my ignore list, so I'm not getting into it with him either.

But on the topic of anti-gay bigotry, it is strong in both Islam and Christianity, as practiced by more than a lot of the people that comprise the human institutions that practice these faiths.

Is it worse to order killings based on this? Of course. But it's pretty damn bad too to consider it an "abomination" and say that people will burn in Hell for eternity for loving who they love. And that attitude also leads to violence. That violence, practiced by Christians, may not be officially sanctioned, but it is a direct result of the hate preached in many Christian churches, particularly American ones, toward homosexuals.

It is accurate to say that one is worse than the other, but it also accurate to say that Bostjan Nachbar was worse than Eddie Griffin. They were both bad.

 

Agree. Major can always be relied upon for common sense.

 

My counter-argument...

Spoiler

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There are already bars which serve those things where Muslims can go. What exactly were you proposing then?

With all due respect, your perception seems insanely skewed. I have seen people of all faiths and races overpaid to do their jobs, only for them to try to force others to behave like them and insulted them for not being as enlightened (not drinking, not eating pork, not being pro-homosexuality). Does this mean anything in the grand scheme of things? Is this a reflection on Christianity (for example)? On the European nationalities?

It doesn't mean anything. Just like every person who lives in London will tell you that the Polish immigrants are leeching off them and are disrespectful. Just like every Emirati will tell you that the non-Muslim expats are spitting on their culture. So on and so forth.

You must see that, wherever a Muslim goes other than predominantly Muslim countries, at this point in history they are the least welcomed. I know this because I travel everywhere and I actually experience what it feels like to be recognized as a Middle Easterner. There is nothing more vile than being looked at as if you are a terrorist. There is nothing more hurtful than the looks a Muslim girl gets if she chooses to wear a shaal and cloak in Europe or North America.

I'm sure, having traveled a lot yourself, you have had that kind of sensation to some extent. Trust me.. to think or assume that, in 2010, Muslims are being welcomed around the world and they are being assholes regardless is a gross misconception. It's, in fact, a completely irrational perception of reality that can only be achieved through selective observation. If there was a ranking by religion of "least welcomed" it would be Muslims, and if it was by country, predominantly Muslim countries would also top that list.

So if you saw something or heard something, I think it's probably sensible for you to chalk it up to the typical cultural insensitivity faced whenever there is any large scale immigration, rather than "those damn Muslims". The habits you are discussing are not from Islam anyway - Muslims aren't supposed to go around and make people stop drinking or eating pork. That is just a-hole behavior, completely independent of the religion of those people and it's very insulting that you would associate all Muslims with that type of behavior. I would not ask you to stop drinking or stop eating pork as a total stranger, and it doesn't matter if we're in my country or your country. If I saw someone doing that, I would tell them off myself, even though I don't drink or eat pork. Can you see why your "issue" is being misapplied?

 

1:20-1:50
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I don't think we'll be seeing any extremist happenings in this mosque and community center. I believe the goal of purchasing the mosque is to be a positive addition to the community and halt common misconceptions of Islam. I believe what Fareed Zakaria(and the imam) said of America being the ideal country for Muslims is important and is seen by the millions who have fled their corrupt homelands to come to this great country to raise their kids and lead peaceful lives while following Islam.

That's pretty unfortunate to hear. Can you share some examples that you have seen first-hand? I am sure there is intolerance but I see it everywhere, not just by Muslims. If you are speaking of oppression of women, etc, I haven't seen that first-hand here in the West and I have been around a lot of Muslims.

Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam but it is a part of society and it should just be left alone. I don't think a significant percentage of Muslims want to eradicate homosexual's off the Earth or anything extreme like that. It's just not part of Islam just like eating pork and drinking alcohol isn't. If others are homosexuals(or drinkers/pork eaters), it shouldn't matter because they are not Muslims and don't follow Islam so they should be able to do whatever they want.

LOL they have no business engaging in a discussion about Islam when they are(or act like) immature kids. It's funny to watch them embarrass themselves but also sad to see they are not representing Islam in a positive manner with their posts (mostly BEAT LA).


http://ireport.cnn.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=479583&hpt=C2

I think this series from this link is a great idea by CNN and hope it is successful in portraying Islam in the right manner. I hope people check it out and keep up up with this series throughout the 4 weeks and gain a better understanding of Islam.