Smithers, see how my Confederate Slaveholdings stock is doing!

Ah, the squabbles of my digital family......

Anyway, some of you need to read some history books:
Warring tribes in Africa captured what were essentially POWs. They then turned around and sold these POWs to European Slavers. This lady blaming the US government should go back deeper and sue herself, rather than blaming her problems on a bunch of people who had nothing to do with this.

Rome conquered England a bajillion years ago. Should I go and sue modern-day Italy?

After Rome conquered England, England was conquered by the Normans. In fact, Vikings beat the sh*t out of my ancestors frequently back in the day, what with all that raping, sacking, and pillaging. I think I'll go sue Minnesota.

Then England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland (I'm descended from those four places) took turn beating the sh*t out of each other and conquering each other back and forth for another bajillion years. So now I should sue myself. I'd love to see how that conversation would go: Lynus! You owe yourself $2! b**** please, I owe me way more than $2!

This lady needs to get over herself. I don't owe her a thing, except maybe a "Thank You" for the good half of my ancestors who fought and died to free her ancestors.

 

DaDa,
This doesn't look like it would stand up to the law of torts, IMH non-legal O. "Duty of care owed" and "breach of that duty," are measured by the standards of the day. If slavery was legal at the time, then slavery alone won't be enough. You'd have to show that they weren't treated the way they should have been by the standards of the day. But that's not all. You also have to show damages. The decendents are going to have a difficult time showing personal damages. Too much time and too many other factors have intervened to make a direct link, I would think. I'm really not sure what the basis of the suit would be.

 

Bingo. You can sue over any damn thing you want to - you just won't win the suit. The reason for the lawsuit was to generate publicity for and discussion of reparations. They know they won't win, but they get a bunch of press out of it.

 

Are you saying that buying people from kidnappers, transporting them thousands of miles from their homeland, and holding them as slaves constitutes the US having nothing to do with this or do you just want to focus on who you can divert blame to? And when you say she should sue herself is that while she's a "plain American" or is she an African now?

You're free to file whatever lawsuits you see fit, so go for it.

 

... on your head maybe!

If you feel guilty about this, why don't you just voluntarily pay up?

 

Lynus,

You forgot to add, however, that it is believed that in many instances these tribes that sold these POWs were mislead. They were led to believe that these people would be in a form of indentured servitude, and couldn't have possibly have imagined what was to happen to them. That these tribes sold what would be my ancestors, no argument from me, that was the practice of the time. Of course, the inhumane treatment, racism, and apartheid that followed, that's what we should have a problem with.

 

It looks like this thread has straightened its tone out, but I did want to say a few quick words in defense of Timing. He believes in the concept of reparations, clicks on this thread, and sees it described as "pathetic", "laughable", "the stupidest thing that I have ever heard", "r****ded", and so on and so forth.

I've used language like that in the past, to dismiss positions I didn't want to deal with. It's not constructive, and it causes probably 80 percent of the problems that make the Admins want to ditch the Hangout altogether.

It's also absolutely infuriating to have your beliefs characterized in such a way. It's happened to me before, courtesy of Achebe and rimbaud-- though the language wasn't as blunt, the tone was every bit as derisive.

We had a decent discussion of reparations in this thread if anyone's interested.

 

As an African-American\Black man, I am somewhat torn on this issue.

On one hand, you can't deny that the institution of slavery provided this country an invaluable amount of free labor.

But then again, does the Black community really have a problem with the non-payment of the ancestors for work and services performed, or the inhumanity of the system? Its really hard to distinguish between the two.

The closest analogy that I can think of in relation to slavery reparations is the death penalty.

I am somewhat a supporter of the death penalty, but I admit that the death penalty has little to do with justice. For example, the state executes Joe Killer for the murder of Mrs. Smith's daughter. Does that really help ease Mrs. Smith's pain? And what of Joe Killer's family, what about their pain? Is justice really served?

The same can be asked about slavery reparations. I mean, say this lady is successful, and she sets a precedent in US Law. Does that really change things? Is justice really being served?

There are some things that even money can't rectify.

She can sue if she wants, it's her right as an American.

But I think she's alone in this particular bout.

 

Question: do you guys see this as morally and/or legally the same as giving government reparations to native peoples?

I know that this is an ongoing process in New Zealand; it has no monetary 'cap' or statute of limitations timewise. As long as historians can prove the legitimacy of tribal claims, the New Zealand government is obligated to repay them in land, funds, or fishing rights. And I think that's cool (especially since my tribe gave me $500 as a part-Maori grad student!).

I'm not sure whether this is the same situation or not, though. Still thinking about it.

 

I remember that the Descendent of those held in Camps during
WWII [The Japanese folx] get money

I saw a while back where the Jewish folx are sueing some
bank in Switzelerland because they launder stolen
Money and artifacts from the Germany attempted genocide
of the jews

If this case is baseless . . .so were those
In fact. . . why was Isreal created for the Jews again?????

ok . . .i guess now I'm anti-Semetic

My point is:
1. Slavery happened
2. Many folx benefitted from it.
3. The results and consequences of slavery, reconstruction and jim crow are being felt by descendents of slavery today
4. If i steal all bill gate's money...Kill him and then myself. and leave it to my son . . . would that mean my son would owe bill gate's son none of that money? I mean my son did nothing wrong. . . . an no one DIRECTLY affect is still alive.

I say this . . but most of you have a hissyfit at the notion that Slavery was atrocious .. . and that maybe an official Apology should be given . . . .

Hell some of you probably think Blacks are better for it. . . built character or something


Rocket River

 

If this suit is successful (or any reparations agreement go through), should the amounts won be offset by the previous efforts to set things right - things like affirmative action, race-based scholarships, whathaveyou?

Or from another perspective, if approx. $28,000 per African-American makes us all square, do we then outlaw affirmative action or other efforts toward diversity?

My fear is that a single large cash payment to make up for all the evils of slavery makes it that much harder to get anything accomplished in the future. The idea might be that we're done helping, so there's no reason to try to better South Dallas with tax money (to use a local example) and so on and so on. If many of the problems are systemic, the large cash payment won't solve them. If anything, it could make it harder to solve the real problems.

And on a practical note, would a person have to prove they are decendants of American slaves to collect? That could be dicey in and of itself given the poor record-keeping, especially in relation to African-Americans.

It's a messy issue, and this approach seems wrought with peril. You run the very real risk that these efforts to get reparations fail while also turning people off from the idea of helping solve some of the problems that exist and need to be addressed (or are being addressed in some ways now).

 

First of all...like it or not, slavery was legal. They have no basis for suing these companies because of Jim Crow laws or anything else...they're simply suing based on damages caused by slavery. Don't cloud the issue with other factors.

Second...ummmm..statute of limitations??? laches??? These are wrongs committed about 140 years ago!! Who's going to testify in this trial??? How "fresh" is the evidence??? This is ridiculous...I have clients who can't bring simple breach of contract actions against people who never paid them for contracts entered into 3 years ago...but these people will sue for events occuring 140 years ago??? This has no place in the America justice system.

This needs to stay out of the courts because it just doesn't fit there. If the companies decide to do something to pay these people to appease the court of public opinion, that's fine. But if they do, OUR insurance premiums go up. Thanks! The company's won't be punished...the consumers will as they pass the cost along.

Slavery sucks...it's an abomination before God and decent men and women. But there are TONS of things in history that every civilization has been forced to suffer at the hands of another civilization. My ancestors on my mom's side of the family left a very wealthy life in Ireland for America because the father figure was a Protestant minister and was hung by the Catholics. I don't plan on suing the Pope anytime soon.

Man, our society is litigous....I could certainly understand the second generation after slavery bringing these claims...but this woman isn't much older than I am...I doubt there's anyone in her family who could even related firsthand accounts of slavery to her in her lifetime!!! Amazing.

 

Awww Rich it's so sweet of you to pass the buck. This isn't an issue of my feeling guilty, it's an issue of justice. As a citizen of this country I inherit it's history both good and bad regardless of when my family came to America. I'm ashamed of what my country has done and I want to see it addressed, why don't you?


Also BK did bring up many excellent questions which mostly addressed the logistics of reparations. From what I read the lawsuit proposes that a fund be set up to address education and health care for the descendants of slavery, it does not recommed mailing checks out. It's weird that this lawsuit was filed after we had that discussion.

Some of the same arguments get posted on why reparations are bad and I don't think most of them are very good. The African warring tribes thing as a way to absolve American involvement is weak. The time issue is not one since there is no statute of limitations on kidnapping or murder, and presumably slavery. The affirmative action point is not a remedy for slavery because it's not race specific but rather a remedy for racism/sexism. The issue of nobody holding slaves now is irrelevant because the US government is still that, it's not a different form of government today. The Civil War as reparations argument is a bad one as well, how can freeing those wrongly enslaved be considered a form of justice for their oppression? Well it's not. I'm sure there are some commonly used ones that I'm missing but surely someone will bring one of them up soon.

 

You're right...there is no limitations period for murder or kidnapping...but those are crimes to be prosecuted by the state. Not private civil actions pursued by private individuals. And, SLAVERY WAS LEGAL AT THE TIME THEY PROFITTED FROM IT!!! It was not illegal for them to profit from the trade or labor of slaves. That's a shame, and ultimately that fact changed. But the law may not be used ex post facto in that way...Your argument that the US govt is the same govt today that is was then is one I don't understand...these people aren't suing the US govt, to my knowledge...they're suing private companies that profitted from slave labor. I'm not sure where you're going with that point.

 

Tell you what....all those that want to pay...go right ahead and deduct it from your OWN personal monies. All of us that DO NOT want to pay will be happy to laugh our A$$es off at your lunacy.

What about people who pay taxes whose forefathers came to our country AFTER 1865? Should they be punished by having to pony up tax dollars even though their families were not even here?

This lady needs to get off her BUTT and start making a difference and quit chasing the EASY dollar.

All these Frivolous lawsuits do is clog up the system....all they have to do to make these stop is to make the LOSING side pay all court costs...then watch how fast all these BS lawsuits dry up.

DaDakota

 

Wrongful death/murder can be tried in civil court for monetary damages. The fact that slavery was legal at the time I don't think means too much. Forced labor of Jews in Germany was legal and so was the internment of Japanese, enacted by executive order I believe, but both of those instances have been sued quite successfully. I don't see any difference here.

The government comment relates to the argument presented against reparations from the federal government. It's often said that it's not the same government so we're not responsible which is simply not true because it is the same government. I think a lawsuit against the federal government is just a matter of time now.


DaDa I'm highly disappointed that you and Rich have decided to leave the "plain American" club because you will not be held accountable for your government's actions. Are you now the "plain American except when it comes to pay the piper" club?

 

What makes you think pursuing a lawsuit that basically makes you either hated or laughed at easy? Besides, I'm sure Max doesn't consider lawsuits all that easy.

 

Hey I am all for the plain american club, it is people like this woman who are constantly trying to raise the issue of being different.

If she was a TRUE american, she would be in favor of helping out the good ole USA any way she could.

Instead, she is in it for her greedy self.....

Which is something I CAN appreciate.



DaDakota

 

Isn't that the Good 'Ole USA way?