Cohen, after the clarification on another thread we had I don't think our stands on the Palestinian issue are not that far apart. Neither of us supports Sharon, for instance, both support a viable two state solution.. Given that, do you feel that more US pressure or at least less support for Israe,l especially when led by someone like Sharon, would be helpful in getting us to the desired two state solution? I think the current US pressuere put on Arafat is moving us perilously close to the chaos that may arise when he is eliminated as a player. I never see a similar level of pressure from the US to eliminate or even stop expanding the settlements that are so against any possible peace.
LOL! There are over a 1.2 BILLION MUSLIMS in the world and I gurantee the majority of us would not be pleased with that (to put it mildly).
glynch, Much more US pressure on Israel is warranted, IF ANYONE in the Palestinian camp can reduce the terrorist acts. Regardless of the terrorist acts, the settlements should not grow AT ALL. They are inflammatory, and rightly so. Also, I have become more concerned with Israel's attacks in civilian areas. I am not convinced that they do much at all to protect civilian lives. It is hard to judge from this distance, but it doesn't look good at all. Recently, I was particulalrly incensed when Sharon took advantage of 911 to make an offensive move into Palestinian territory. Also, he presumably told Peres, to paraphrase, "why do you keep worrying about what the Americans will think? We own them" (sorry that I cannot find the original quote for the source). I don't know what the deal is with Bush and Arafat. Could Bush's public displeasure actually be designed to help Arafat's image? Or is it truly that Arafat is doing little to curb terrorism and could do a lot? I don't know.
The level of pressure is actually pretty similar for both: it's an empty warning. We have repeatedly told the Israelis that we'd like them to stop the settlements, as we have repeatedly told Arafat to start reigning in Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. Problem is, there's never any threat of action to back up either request/warning... I thought it was 1.3 billion? Whatever... There's nothing they could do. Why does everyone always conveniently forget about Israel's nukes? I don't expect Sharon to have the IDF roll in one day and start slaughtering everyone, I'm just saying that if Arafat doesn't get his sh*t together fast things are going to get alot worse. That was from one of Q8Rocket's ridiculous sources... It's probably a little of both. If Arafat is seen as being too friendly with us, then his people might get the mistaken impression that he is controlled by us, and they will turn on him. It is in his interests if it was made to appear that we forced him to crack down on terrorism, which wouldn't be far from the truth anyway if it's going to happen. Arafat truly hasn't done much at all to reign in the terrorists. I'm sure you've heard about the revolving-door imprisonment policy of the PNA; how can the Israelis take him seriously when he won't arrest and hold on to anyone? Just the other day he made a belated attempt to arrest Yassin (spiritual head and founder of Hamas), but called a truce when the Hamas operatives wouldn't turn him over. Men like this have to be removed from their power bases, and Arafat still isn't doing anything about it... The Israelis are getting tired of him.
A nice map of how Israel put settlements all over Palestinian land so even if they made a Palestine...they would have Israeli Fanatics inside Palestinian land under authority of Israel. Which really makes no sense whatsoever. So that nice peace-agreement that Uncle Barak offered to Arafat bin Laden wasn't all that nice afterall. The pressure that US is putting on is not the same at all. This is an excerpt from a Resolution that recelty passed in the House(240). 2) expresses outrage at the ongoing Palestinian terrorist campaign and insists that the Palestinian Authority take all steps necessary to end it; (3) demands, specifically, that the Palestinian Authority take action immediately to-- (A) destroy the infrastructure of Palestinian terrorist groups; (B) pursue and arrest terrorists whose incarceration has been called for by Israel; and (C) either-- (i) prosecute such terrorists, provide convicted terrorists with the stiffest possible punishment, and ensure that those convicted remain in custody for the full duration of their sentences; or (ii) render all arrested terrorists to the Government of Israel for prosecution; (4) urges the President to take any and all necessary steps to ensure that the Palestinian Authority takes the actions described in paragraph (3), including, if necessary, suspending all relations with Yasir Arafat and the Palestinian Authority; (5) further urges the President to insist that all countries harboring, materially supporting, or acquiescing in the private support of Palestinian terrorist groups end all such support, dismantle the infrastructure of such groups, and bring all terrorists within their borders to justice;
Looks good to me, boy. Am I to understand that you have a problem with our Congress urging our President to take action against terrorists? Guess what: Fatah/PNA is a terrorist group! We've just lost 3,300 people to terrorism. Forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to your Hamas and Fatah buddies...
However you claimed that the same amount of pressure was sent to both parties...which simply is not true. I wonder if AIPAC had anything to do with that.
And I said: "We have repeatedly told the Israelis that we'd like them to stop the settlements, as we have repeatedly told Arafat to start reigning in Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. Problem is, there's never any threat of action to back up either request/warning..." What part of "there's never any threat of action to back up either request/warning" don't you understand? This resolution does nothing in retaliation for noncompliance, except for possibly breaking relations with Arafat and the PNA. Which wouldn't bother me too much, as he/they are terrorists... I'm guessing that you simply want the US to cut all aid and ties to Israel, while maintaining financial support for the PNA? Is that it? I have explained this before, but... if we were to cut all aid and ties to the Israelis the only effect it would have would be to remove our leverage and unleash the Sharon and the IDF to do whatever it wanted; that aid is not vital to either their economic survival nor their national security - they could get along fine without it. But if we ended all aid to the PNA, they'd be practically broke... So, essentially, you want us to pay for the PNA and Hamas (which you claimed previously that you believe should be a legal militia), but stop giving money to the region's only democracy? Makes sense... if you want to keep seeing Israeli school buses blown up. Yes, boy. The Jews own America...
EVERYONE needs to read this: 1) Bin Laden didn't start supporting the Palestinian cause recently. Just because a bunch of people tuned in on 11th of September, barely ever heard of Bin Laden decide that because he said that Palestine should be safe that he just jumped on the bandwagon, it doesn't mean it's true. 2) Muslims and Jews can trace themselves to the same origin. So can Croatians and Iranians. Religion cannot be the basisi of argument these days, because everyone beleives in their own religion. Palestinians don't WANT to kill large masses of people, they HAVE to, because it's RIGHT, it's JUSTICE. 3) It IS naive to beleive that the Sep. 11 attacks had nothing to do with Israel-Palestine. 4) What makes you so sure Arafat is letting these terrorists act? There is no evidence to support it, and it's not true. 5) Israel can't/won't/WILL NEVER nuke Palestine. It's out of the question. 6) Israel will always be looking for excuses to call of negotiations of any kind. 7) It's impossible to argue with someone living in the states. This has nothing to do with being American, but more to do with the media coverage, CNN, propoganda, and stuff like that. P.S. Great points boy, and great articles. P.P.S. I'm not Palestinian. I don't live in Palestine. I'm not Arab. I live in the Middle East, and I'm Iranian. No, it's not the same thing. Most Iranians don't like Arabs. But credit is given where credit is due.
They are not mutually exclusive, of course, because Israel is seen as a puppet state (or the other way around, depending on circumstances) by many in the ME, and we're getting alot of the anger that is directed at Israel because of it. The widespread hatred for Israel in the muslim world has spilled over to America. But bin Laden's real beef with the US is our stationing of troops on Saudi soil and our support for the Saudi regime. Two problems I'd like to see resolved as well... When he arrests them and releases them two days later when no one's looking, that's support. When he has a mandate to arrest them and simply claims that they're under house arrest (without guard), that's support. When Fatah fires on Israeli civilians, that's more overt support. When he appears before the UN and claims he will fight terror, and then rushes home so he can blast Israel and call for armed resistance, that's support. There's quite a bit of evidence to support the idea that he's supporting terrorists. BTW, have you forgotten just who Yassir Arafat is? This man was the OBL of the '70s and '80s. He's also full of sh*t, talks out of both sides of his mouth, and has a problem with keeping his end of deals... If Israel's survival is ever truly threatened, then it will nuke every Arab (and Persian) for a thousand miles in all directions. I would not bet against that if I were you. Of course, they wouldn't nuke Palestine as it's too close to Israeli territory. They'd just hose it down conventionally in the event they were facing destruction... Why do you think the Arabs decided to stop invading Israel? It's dangerous enough going up against the IDF's conventional forces. And don't forget that in the 1973 war that when it looked like Israel was about to be overrun, Meir ordered the nukes loaded. They were actually loaded on warplanes sitting on the runway, ready to take off, when Sharon had the breakthrough in Egypt... Thinking that there will ever be a ME without an Israel is ridiculous; trying to make it so is quite dangerous, too. Then why don't the Palestinians live up to their agreements, so the Israelis will have no excuse to call off negotiations? When the person you're negotiating with tells you he wants peace while his people are still blowing up your schoolbuses, you cease negotiations until he feels like negotiating honestly. It is not that difficult a concept. Don't give people like Netanyahu and Sharon any excuses to call off negotiations, and they won't.
The following are exerpts from a major article in the current edition of the Nation.com. Now 50 percent of Israelis favor "transferring" the Arabs of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to Arab countries, according to a recent poll in the mass-circulation daily Ma'ariv. Tourism revenues are expected to plummet by two-thirds this year--from $3 billion to less than $1 billion. Meanwhile, the intifada, the lost tourism dollars and the crash of the high-tech industry have sent Israel's economy spiraling into a recession. The recent contraction in the country's GDP is the worst recorded since 1953. s bad as life has become for Israelis, it is far, far worse for Palestinians: Their economy has crumbled; IDF roadblocks prevent Palestinians from getting to work, children from getting to school and the sick from getting to hospitals; missiles and rockets crash through apartment buildings in the middle of the night and tanks rumble down streets maliciously crushing cars. More than 770 Palestinians have been killed and some 16,000 injured by the army and settlers since the onset of the second intifada. Even today, nobody really knows why Prime Minister Barak allowed Sharon and his entourage to enter the Temple Mount compound in September 2000. The Israeli police and military intelligence had urged Sharon not to attend his pre-announced cavalcade there. For weeks, they had received reports that his presence would provoke a serious upheaval. Palestinian leaders also begged Barak to bar Sharon from entering the Muslim compound, declaring that it would trigger a religious war. Sharon--the man who "bears personal responsibility" for the 1982 massacre of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila, according to an Israeli commission of inquiry--spent an hour walking around the compound. Military helicopters buzzed overhead. He was surrounded by hundreds of policemen. In the waiting crowd below, Sharon's supporters screamed "Death to the Arabs!" and "This is our land!" As predicted, Sharon's actions triggered a massive wave of violence borne of disillusionment with the failed peace talks and the ongoing settlement drive. In the eight years since the first Oslo agreement, according to the Washington, DC-based Foundation for Middle East Peace, the population of the settlements has grown by 100 percent, to reach some 200,000 (not including East Jerusalem). Housing units have jumped by 50 percent. About forty new settlements were built between 1996 and the 1999 election, the vast majority of them rising after the fall of 1998. The settlers "have political power way beyond their numbers," groans Peace Now leader Janet Aviad. "About 5 percent of the population holds the rest of us hostage." Twenty-five new encampments have been established since the election of Sharon this past February. Taken together, the settlements reach out like long fingers that divide the Palestinian areas on the West Bank into three bantustans. In Gaza 6,500 settlers live among 1.2 million desperately poor, increasingly radicalized Palestinians. Meanwhile, every settlement now has its own native militia, which has mortars, light and heavy-caliber machine guns and sniper rifles. According to current estimates by Israeli military intelligence officials, about 20,000 of these heavily armed settlers would use their weapons against the government if they were told to abandon their homes as a condition of a peace accord. Officials of Shin Bet, the Israeli security service, say any prime minister who signed such an accord would be in great physical danger from the kind of extremists who assassinated Prime Minister Rabin in 1995. But many Israeli liberals, fed up with Arafat's inability or unwillingness to stop the terrorism, have moved to the right. Although polls say 55 percent of Israelis still want peace, more than 70 percent approve of Sharon's tough-guy methods. "We've lost our own children to the right," says Janet Aviad, who said that polling data commissioned by the left-wing Meretz Party confirms the trend. Peace talks are not likely as long as Israel is governed by a coalition headed by Sharon, who is currently being propped up by the centrist Labor Party and Shimon Peres. Labor fractured after Barak's failure at Camp David and his loss to Sharon in the race for prime minister. The party has no appealing young turks. Its most promising rising star, Yossi Beilin, quit Labor after it joined Sharon's government. Beilin said that he was morally opposed to joining a government that included a racist Cabinet minister--Gandhi. Palestinian peace advocates have also been devastated by the lost promise of Camp David. One is Bashar Al Deek, the 27-year-old European desk officer for the Palestinian Legislative Council. I met him in Ramallah at the headquarters of the Palestine National Council. We sat in a large room with leather sofas and drank coffee. This intifada is worse than the last one because both of us lost a very important thing," said (Bashar AL Deek) the soft-spoken, thin young man. "We had put in a big effort to build trust between Israelis and Palestinians, and it was demolished. It's a disaster. It's not just a matter of closures and shootings and shellings. The whole thing started when the Israeli people lost a great leader, Rabin. And after they lost Rabin, they lost the whole peace process It's so hard to be occupied and say, Stop the violence," Al Deek said. "The Israeli people can express themselves. They are free to say what they want. I asked myself, Where are our friends in Israel? Where is the peace camp? Huwara, I was to learn, has the misfortune of being sandwiched between four radical, particularly nasty Israeli settlements. In November of 2000 a group of settlers stormed the village around 1:30 in the morning and torched the mosque. They broke a side window and threw in a Molotov cocktail. It hit the carpet and everything burned inside, including the Korans. "The fire was tremendous," said a villager named Ali who was surrounded by a group of his friends in the small community center. "In ten minutes the settlers managed to do their task and escape under the protection of the soldiers." Because of its location, on the way to Nablus, Huwara used to be a commercial center," said one woman. "Now it's dead because of the closures. Ninety percent of the men are unemployed. Since the intifada they've been doing absolutely nothing." Another woman complained that because their men feel helpless, they turn their rage against their wives, and there is a high incidence of domestic abuse Sharon, who opposes a Palestinian state, is very cunning. He knows that the longer the intifada drags on, the more entrenched the extremists on both sides will become and the harder it will be to restart the peace process. He has reportedly stated that he would eventually like to install a quisling Palestinian leadership that wouldn't press him to give up too much territory--in particular, Jerusalem and the holy places--in a final negotiated settlement. As evil as terrorism is, however, it doesn't represent an existential threat to Israel. The absence of peace does. Without peace that would result in a viable Palestinian state, Israel will soon be ruling over a hostile majority-Palestinian population, and then "the situation will deteriorate in a very short time into hell," says Yossi Beilin. "I don't know what kind of hell, but it will be hell."
Originally posted by Sane EVERYONE needs to read this: 1) Bin Laden didn't start supporting the Palestinian cause recently. Just because a bunch of people tuned in on 11th of September, barely ever heard of Bin Laden decide that because he said that Palestine should be safe that he just jumped on the bandwagon, it doesn't mean it's true. Amonpour is a journalistic goddess, and I trust her more than you on this one. Unless of course you can provide a little more substance; bin laden first raised the Palestinian issue only a few years ago, but he has been 'at war' with the US for around 10 years. 2) Muslims and Jews can trace themselves to the same origin. So can Croatians and Iranians. Religion cannot be the basisi of argument these days, because everyone beleives in their own religion. Palestinians don't WANT to kill large masses of people, they HAVE to, because it's RIGHT, it's JUSTICE. What a bunch of bull**** that statement was. The Jews can make the same claim, and the killing will continue on forever. Why don't you try to be a part of the solution, not the hatred and killing. 3) It IS naive to beleive that the Sep. 11 attacks had nothing to do with Israel-Palestine. Really? And when bin laden was thanking an Egyptian ambassador for bringing 'our' firends the Americans into the Afghani/Soviet conflict in the '70s, where were the Palestinians? What? The same place? Well what the hell? Anyone who accepts this huey is just swallowing a terrorist's PR campaign, hook, line and sinker. 4) What makes you so sure Arafat is letting these terrorists act? There is no evidence to support it, and it's not true. Personally, I don't know about this, but neither do you. 5) Israel can't/won't/WILL NEVER nuke Palestine. It's out of the question. Only if its own survival was REALLY threatened. 6) Israel will always be looking for excuses to call of negotiations of any kind. With Sharon, it definitely appears that way. Then again, he's not the first Israeli PM to call off negotiations after suicide bombers killed innocent people. 7) It's impossible to argue with someone living in the states. This has nothing to do with being American, but more to do with the media coverage, CNN, propoganda, and stuff like that. Its impossible to argue with someone living in the Middle East. In the States, we can read free press from around the world. P.S. Great points boy, and great articles. P.P.S. I'm not Palestinian. I don't live in Palestine. I'm not Arab. I live in the Middle East, and I'm Iranian. No, it's not the same thing. Most Iranians don't like Arabs. But credit is given where credit is due. So, you are saying that Americans can trust the opinion of an Islamic (assumption) Iranian living in the Middle East to be totally unbiased?
<A HREF="http://www.csis.org/burke/sa/israelvspale_intafada.pdf">Cordesman Article on Israel-Palestinian Balance</A> Roughly page 84 of the PDF format gives background on the Palestinian security forces and their overt and covert support of extremists such as Hamas. If you have an article that counters this link, please post. Mango
