Slaughter in downtown Jerusalem

You can kiss my butt. When did I say I support the terrorists? I have claimed many times that both sides are being way too ignorant. Violence begets violence has been my belief. But to think that freakin Israel is completely innocent is bull****! Maybe if your ass did not live in Israel you would have not have such a biased opinion.

I am a Muslim and I could care less if a person is Jew, Hindu or Christian. I dont want to see anyone die. But the people of Palestine are going to defend themselves this way, because this is the only way they can. Does not make it right, but no one said this was a perfect world.

What do you think your freakin PM is? The second coming of Gandhi or MLK? That b**** would eradicate all the Muslims in the world is he could. He is nothing but a toned down version of Hitler.

 

ROckets3 -- the problem is, few see this as "defending themselves"...i mean, come on. these are bombs with nails blown up on buses and in malls!! not exactly going after the source of their political problems. i don't see how anyone could categorize that as self-defense. how does these acts further their own defense?? that's not even slightly rational.

i'll say what i've said a thousand times...there is a big difference between targeting civilians and targeting strategic points. what the rest of the world considers to be collateral damage, these groups count as legitimate targets. the U.S. invests billions of dollars in technology to limit collateral damage and be more effective in hitting specific limited targets...Hamas invested their resources into nail-laden bombs so as to maximize the number of civilian casualties. if someone can't see the difference, i truly feel sorry for them.

Sharon as a "toned down version of Hitler?" please. Sharon's country is under attack daily...and his citizens live in absolute fear. He was elected largely in a measure of the daily fear the Israeli people live with because they find themselves as legitimate targets. Sort of like being an American with a bounty on your head simply because you're an American.

woodlands -- "they made their bed" -- i'm sorry, but is that not the most callous statement?? "sorry to all of you folks who were intentionally targeted because of your nationality, but you made your bed. you deserve to have nails shoot through your bodies because you made your bed." again, this illustrates the difference between targeting civilians and more legitimate political targets. how is hamas any different from the KKK with their actions this weekend? certainly the kkk members who burned crosses and targeted civilians by blowing up black churches believed in their cause...but ultimately, the ends do not justify the means when you seek to harm innocent civilians.

Sept 11 had less to do with Mideast peace than you think..Osama has never trumpeted that as a reason for hating America. Sure, after Sept 11 he paid lip service to it, but his main point of contention is the presence of US forces on what is considered to be holy land after Desert Storm. You remember..the Desert Storm operation where we successfully defended Muslim nations from a crazed freak....that was the operation about 8 years before the operation in Europe where we bombed and pursued another crazed freak who was systematically killing Muslims in Eastern Europe. Our concern is not with Islam..our concern is with justice. This is why the Bush administration was talking of the need for a Palestinian state even before Sept 11...a concept that wasn't entirely popular at the time, and still isn't today among many.

if the palestinians are trying to win the world to their side, they're failing miserably. they have been offered statehood time and time again, and they reject it repeatedly. Arafat has said he would like to see a collaborative palestinian government that includes Hamas....that is unacceptable to the rest of the civilized world for reasons that should be quite clear after this weekend's events.

 

Riiiiiiiight. Give the people attacking civilians more sophisticated weaponry and they'll stop??!!!? Thats the most idiotic statement I've ever read on this bbs.

 

<A HREF="http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/03/top14.htm">The United Nation's special coordinator concerned</A>


Mango

 

And Americans don't want UN peacekeeping forces or forces from other countries patrolling the United States. Why would any sovereign nation want foreign troops occupying their land?

And considering that the UN had the infamous "Zionism Equals Racism" resolution on the books until 1991, one could see how Israel would be suspicious of the United Nations.

Even when the Palestians were obstensibly in control of the area, they killed Jews. We can go back to the Hebron Massacre of 1929. When the British decided to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab areas, the Jews accepted, the Arab rejected the idea.

If we study the entire history of the area, we can certainly find plenty of evidence to show that the Jews are simply reacting to the violence that was started against them (and sometimes continued by other countries in the region in an effort to solidify their own positions within the Arab World).

The Israelis replied to attacks against them with violence. That violence has caused Arabs to respond with violence. One side pushes, the other side pushes back. To act as if one side in this conflict is completely blameless is to ignore a huge side of the story.

And saying that the response to violence is more violence is not the way, either. Israelis want proactive leadership because of all the attacks they've had in the past. Just like the Arabs respond to violence with violence, Jews want violence to be responded to with violence, so they elect the people who they think will handle the problem.

More Arabs will die because of what happened in Jeruselem this weekend. And the deaths of those Arabs will be again be used an excuse for another attack agaist the Jews. And then the Jews will use that attack as an excuse to kill more Arabs.

It's a neverending thing, but you can't excuse the actions of one side of the conflict and not the other when each side is motivated by the same thing.

As for whether there would be peace if Israel was just out of the West Bank and Gaza, I will remind people that there was violence against Jews in the region before Israel had control of the West Bank and Gaza. There was violence against Jews when the area was still Palestine. Israel could disappear tomorrow andif history is any guide, there would still be violence against Jews in the area. To pretend that everything would just be okay if the Israelis would just surrender is to ignore everything that's ever happened over there before.

 

I was just reading the article Mango posted, and it occured to me that the best way for Arafat to get concessions from Israel is probably to side with them against Hamas and the other terrorist groups. If the non-terrorist Palestinians could join Israel in wiping out terrorism, I would guess that the Israelis would be much more likely to have trust and empathy toward the Palestinians. It is obvious that Arafat cannot motivate the terrorists to stop the violence, so maybe he should instead help the other side stop it forcibly.

 

Ok.. don't blow up shopping malls, pizza parlors, buses, etc etc. C'mon, Israel kills a big Hamas leader and the palestinians go apesh*t. I truly see that Arafat has no power. Honestly, I feel sorry for the palestinians who are peaceful in nature. They are true victims of their own society.

As far as your sept 11 theory; I think it is BS. You have been reading way too much palestinian propaganda. This is just another excuse to blame Israel for Sept. 11th. When was the last time there was lasting peace in Israel? Ummm... never! bin Camel would have done it anyways. The guy is insane, just like Hamas.

 

I Think Everyone can Agree that Violence begets Violence


Israel Kills Children and Assasinates Palestinians, continues to bulldoze peoples houses and throw people out of their homes.
Sharon is wrong and must still pay for what he did 17 years ago and his reign of blood must end.

Palestinians continue acts of terror, attacking and bombing innocents. Killing children, innocents and others causing further retaliation.


Both sides are wrong, the sheer scale of death is heavily in favor of Israel, with many, many more Palestinians dead than Israelis.

And lets not kid ourselves, the main reason there is Anti American sentiment in the Arab World is because of Americas unwavering, unilateral support of Israel.

I personally don't want my Tax dollars going to a apartheid state.

I say cut the Funding from Israel until they come to a lasting peace, I as an American in the US don't want to feel the repurcussions of very angry people because we are supporting Israel and its actions.

That country is a leech on the US, as is much of the world. The money could be much better spent on battling our personal problems.

 

And Franchise2001, how is Sharon any better than a Hamas leader??

They are both MASS MURDERERS in my eyes.

You can't go around asassinating people and expect there not to be any repurcussions.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.....words to live by

 

I'm a bit ignorant regarding all the details,...but from the outside looking in...It sure looks like the Palestinians are the aggressors...I'm sorry, but it sure looks that way...before boy recites the camp rhetoric, let me say I did watch an episode on msnbc called :"holy land, unholy war", or close to it...and it presented a balanced view of Sharon and Arafat from 30 years to now (covering such things as Sharon's son killing himself by accident with a military weapon, Arafat's hard tactics in the 70's, Sharon possibly assassinating Arafat, but stoping at last minute...Arafat's famous plane crash, and marriage, etc.)...but the impression that I got was that Sharon was/is a particularly driven person and aggressive...Arafat seems harder to figure out...the show touched on how he found it difficult to trust anyone (reason why he has no "strong" no.2 person or second-in-charge)...and his tactics, rhetoric, and else is a lot softer than his more militant stance in the 70's...but it could be to old age...however, he may only appear this way in public, also the show cited how Sharon was so much more personal on a one-to-one basis than the aggressive overtones he can give...They also talked about a camp massacre, but gives evidence Sharon did not realize this would occur between two groups that disdained each other...(though some say he intentionally did this)...I was amazed at how much the world has been impacted by the last 30 years because of the country...I am Christian, and I don't think Jesus would approve of the conflict...but why do we see so much of the palestinian attack???...Do they think they are helping their cause by this?...Some might say what else are they suppose to do? Well, I really think there best gain is through peace...they supposedly have a good leader in Arafat, who speaks vey eloquently in several languages...Arafat and Sharon must sit down together and look at one another in the eye and discuss a way to live together...The question is: Is there a way? If they make an agreement, will there still be terroristic type attacks from the Palestine people?...Can you realistically share holy land? Arafat already turned down a good plan to share the land...so I guess not...Call me loco, but I think the military attacks would stop by Israel if palestine terrorists stop the murders, no?

(as a side note, I recently bought 3- 30 round orlite magazines for my AR-15 and several boxes of .223 ammo through the internet...and thought it was cool that both were made in Israel...don't know how this relates except to show Israel has the military surplus to do serious damage unless some kind of peace initiative is commenced.)

 

woodlandsboy,
Sept 11 would have happened regardless of Israel/Palestine. Bin laden only recently jumped on the Palestinian cause. His 'problems' with the US and the West in general go way back.
Also, forget about peace keepers in the mideast. They would be fairly effective in not allowing Israel to defend itself but would do nothing to diminish terrorist attacks.


For ALL who think that intentional attacks on INNOCENT CIVILIANS are somehow warranted, be careful. The same logic is used against US. It is never warranted, either by the Palestinians, Israelis, or anyone else.


Francis_rules,
I am sorry for what the peace-loving Israelis and Palestinians must endure.
FWIW, your PM does suck. He is probably the worst thing to happen to Israel for many years.




It really comes down to this: Who is ready for peace? Israelis? Palestinians? Who can accept the other's existence? From what I've read, many Palestinians want Israel gone and will accept nothing less. We all know Israel is going nowhere. Stalemate.

 

I don't blame Israel for the Sept 11. I really blame Arafat for not taking the peace deal setup by Clinton and Barak. He is the idiot in this whole mess.

My biggest problem with Israel is the demolition of homes and targetted killings. They knew that doing target killings would get a response like this. They put their own citzens at risk by assainating Hamas leaders. Sharon just want to increase the violence to take more land and keep himself in power. Sharon needs to go and Peres could accomplish peace if Arafat had any balls.

 

what would you have israel do, woodlands??? absolutely nothing?? how much do you think any nation can stand without some form of retaliating?? i think going specifically after the Hamas leaders is exactly the right move...hell, it's the move the U.S. is taking in retaliation for Sept. 11th!!!

 

<B>I'm a bit ignorant regarding all the details,...but from the outside looking in...It sure looks like the Palestinians are the aggressors...</B>

I agree, but I have to wonder how unbiased our media coverage is. I don't think we have anywhere near an accurate portrayal of the situation. The problem is, I'm not sure who would because just about every country in the world has "taken sides" in this conflict. The entire Muslim world is biased towards the Palestinians. The entire Western world is biased towards Israel.

If you look at the heart of the conflict, though, I think you can understand the Hamas strategy (that's not to say its justified). There are three basic ways to win a war: (1) destroy the opponent, (2) destroy their ability to conduct war, and (3) destroy their will to conduct war.

First off, if we accept that some of the "statehood" opportunities offered to Palestinians were shams (no control of their own waterways, airspace, Israeli military presence, etc), I can understand why they'd reject them and continue the "war".

Now, in a war with Israel, options #1 and #2 are military options. Simply put, Palestinians know they can't win a military war with Israel. It's just not possible, and they'll get routed and forced to accept submission by a populace that absolutely hates them. So what's left? Accepting an unacceptable result (fake statehood) or fighting the only way they can.

#3 is particularly effective against democracies. They know that if they strike Israel's military, they will simply be destroyed at all costs. So instead, by sniping at civilians, they probably hope to frustrate Israeli citizens and force pressure on the Israeli government to just end the conflict and finally get some type of statehood under acceptable terms. This is the same philosophy the IRA took, but they had the ability to go after military personnel/targets because they are based in a separate country. In the end, they got a peace process that might generate results that would have never been considered otherwise (except that they are now power-hungry and are screwing themselves over).

This certainly isn't acceptable, and Israel doesn't appear to have any trouble with the will to wage war, but they probably feel that this is the only possible way -- given the relative position of Israel and Palestinians -- to win their "war". The alternative isn't acceptable, so they fight with whatever they can.

Like the IRA though, Hamas and other groups appear to have gotten power-hungry and might be screwing themselves now or in the near future. Personally, I think Arafat is stuck in a hard place, because he's now in the position he wanted to be in -- negotiating for peace -- but the people that got him there (and can basically destroy him) are the groups like Hamas who want more.

 

The difference is that Israel does the target killings first then the targetted group reacts with suicide bombers. US didn't kill anybody first. Targetted killings is the wrong approach it puts Israel citizens at risk. Hamas will never run out of leaders so what is the use of killing them. You need to lower violence.

 

woodlands.. you're suggesting that Hamas was just this peaceful organization and Israel begin attacking its leadership out of the blue??? not true...Hamas is a deadly terrorist organization and has been for years. Israel was put on the defensive from the moment of its creation.

so again...if targeted killing is the wrong response...what is the right response??? what would you have them do?? you and i both know that no nation would sit around and do nothing as groups targeted its civilians...i assume you know that Hamas wouldn't stop targeting civilians if Israel chose to stop going after Hamas leadership. This is like the critics of US policy in bombing after September 11...they were under the delusion that if we just took it and ate the crap handed to us that somehow these madmen would respect that or something and we could "stop the cycle of violence." Newsflash: Hamas, Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations could care less if there's a "cycle." They'll continue whether there is response or not until they meet their objective. Hamas' objective is the elimination of Israel as a state, something that simply will not happen.

 

Hamas wouldn't have existed if Israel didn't occupy Palestinian land butcher than kill em and kick them out.

And please this crap about Sharon defending his country is bullsh!t. He's a b*stard who simply KILLED PEOPLE. He allowed the Phalangists to butcher rape and kill people in a UN CAMP!!! How can you defend that? He's not some terrorist who's dead...he's the president of one of the most powerful armies of the world and continually allows illegal settlements.

and I'm sorry Arafat SHOULD NOT HAVE AND COULD NOT HAVE accepted that crap they arranged at Camp David.

here for an article on what Sharon's actions caused in Sabra and Chatila.

and here in an Israeli JEWISH prespective on the treaty that Arafat didn't allow.

 

and here is a peace settlement that I believe would be achievable and both sides could live with (should live with).

and yes this should show how Arafat is the best Israel will get to negotiate with. The next leader won't be as nice as Arafat...

 

For the sake of his people's lives, I hope Arafat does something then to bring the terrorists to justice...that would be step number 1...