The hall of fame lost what little credibility they had when they elected Jim Rice in. So all this debates of stats and records are meaningless when merely good players can get in.
He had the knee injury in 2000, IIRC, and not to mention his age by that point. Not surprising his OBP would suffer from that.
I don't know what you want me to say. Reality is what reality is. By the time Biggio got to 3k he had been showing his age for about 6 years. 2 years ago Jeter was 3rd in the MVP voting and looked like he was going to get 4000 hits.
Nothing really. Biggio started his career a year later, had the strike happen during his prime, and then tore up his knee at the end of his prime. Both great, first ballot HOF players.
For what its worth to the discussion (very little, Biggio is surely IN), Now Jeter got to 3000 with a 5 hit game at home. And 3000th on a homer. The reaction we see to Jeter is what Craig Biggio would have gotten had he been a Yankee
What works against Biggio is he was TOO CONSISTENT year in/year out. Biggio didnt have the big gaudy years in RBIs like Alomar or Kent or Sandberg, didnt have the big homer years of Kent or Sandberg, and was close but not quiiiiiite like Alomar in contending for the Batting Average title year after year. Those guys had the couple "hot" years to pass Bayless's "look of a HOF'er". In numerical terms, those guys had the couple "98 rating" years to get everyone's attention. And Biggio kept putting out the "95 rating" years. Not saying what hasnt been said already, but then the writers don't see that Biggio was more versatile in all the OTHER areas that still count past the old score card. A doubles machine. A speed demon on the base paths. A Hit-By-Pitch scrapper . Keeping innings alive not hitting into double plays. Runs scored & total bases its not even close. Though I'm one of those bad fans that lost interest after the Big/Bags era of Astros baseball. (Really honestly, those bad trades for Jennings and Tejada did just as much to strip away interest)
Biggio hit over .300 4 times in a 20 year career and there were only two times where he could be considered a batting champion threat. Alomar hit over .300 9 times in a 17 year career and was a batting title threat 7 times. Alomar was a more "spectacular" player, both at bat and in the field. He also stole more bases and was caught fewer times despite less time in the league.
Biggio had 13 double figure HR years, including eight 20 HR years. Roberto had 9 double figure HR years while only three 20 HR years. Alomar never had more than 43 doubles in a season while Biggio had five season of more than that and two of 50 or more. I would also point out, Biggio was productive for almost 19 seasons while Alomar lasted only 14 seasons. Yes, if Alomar had continued on his pace for 19 season, his numbers would have been greater but attendance counts and Biggio was incredibly durable.
And although Biggio wasn't nearly as to productive during those last 5 years or so, but he posted a positive WAR with the exception of his final season.
Yeah, you're absolutely right, ornery mood + constant east coast Jeter knobslobbery makes Jack something something. There was a good 5-8 year period, especially with Biggio before 2000 just because that's who I watched every day, where they were both very very very good with the glove. I guess when I think of "great" I'm thinking of a different plateau. As an aside, Astroturf does not necessarily make things easier on an infielder. And Skip Bayless is still a punchline to a bad joke nobody wanted to hear in the first place.
Biggio was above average in 2001 (110 OPS+). Otherwise, from 2000 on, he was league-average or below league-average (in some cases, *well* below league-average) every other year, a total of 7 remarkably mediocre years. And he really limped to the finish line those last two years. It's interesting: 3K likely nets him a bust. But bowing out after, say, 2005, likely enahces his resume. Those last two years, as just one example, knocked 4 points off his career BA and 7 points off his career OB%.
Still posted a 1.4 WAR in his second to final season. He had no business leading off anymore, but he was only a below average 2B for his final season.
Biggio hit 21hrs 33doubles and 62rbis with a .422 slugging in 2006. Now let's compare that to Brandon Phillips all star year in 2010...18 hrs 59 rbis 33 doubles slugging .430. Point is, while well past his prime, Biggio was still a productive offensive 2nd baseman. Edit - Also note, Biggio got moved to the outfield when Kent arrived which hurt his standing but in 2005 at 2nd his numbers where far from medicore...40 doubles 24 bombs almost 70 rbis slugging almost .470 and hitting close to .270.
My recollection of that year is that Biggio absolutely destroyed the Crawford Boxes with a litnany of bloop home runs. And sure enough, a quick check confirms - 15 of those 21 dingers came at MMP. (And 26 of his 2Bs, FYI.) He was absolutely wretched on the road that year (.541 OPS) and overall, he posted a .306 OB%, which is really, really terrible - he trailed Brad Ausmus (.308). And it's not like he was a plus-defender by then, either. I don't know if comparing him to an undeserving All-Star does much to bolster his case.
the end of his career is barely relevant. he was regarded by several baseball minds as the best play er in the game in the 90s (admittedly a bit of stretch to rank him above Griffey and Bonds) and was the best (or tied for the best) 2B of his generation. There was Biggio and Alomar, and there was everybody else.
Well... we're specifically discussing the end of his career so the end of his career is sorta, kinda relevant. I wondered if by hanging on to bang out 3K hits, he might've tarnished his numbers a bit. They did take a hit. For instance, he and Alomar (who I think was a better player, btw) would have wound up with the same OB% had Biggio retired after the '05 season.
Yea, I just think he was still productive regardless of where he did it. He was well passed his prime but I'd kill for a second baseman who could hit 21 hrs drive in close to 70 and hit 33 doubles even if most where at MMP. Not calling him the best 2nd baseman of that year but certainly productive. A few points here or there just don't mean that much to be honest and getting to 3k assured him a spot in Cooperstown while raising his OBP a bit would not have. By the way, Brandon Phillips is one of the best 2nd baseman in the league...undeserving?
I'd like to sum up this thread: I love Craig Biggio, and I think Skip Bayless is an incredible crap-weasel.
