I'm very blunt and opinionated for sure...but I think a lot of people confuse that with arrogance....
Maybe they made a ruckus and it didn't have to do with them being Muslim, but of them making a ruckus. My point is that we don't have enough info to judge.
that hasn't been an accusation. what information do you need before you can judge? again i ask. do you really think the next terrorist is gonna fit this blantant description of a muslim?
However, somone praying shouldn't be a cause for concern and removal from an airline. Muslims, nor non-Muslims should never completely understand irrational paranoia.
But the burden of proof goes the other way. It's not our burden to prove that these people were NOT terrorists, it's the burden of those that booted them off the plane to prove that there was some reason behind that. So far, I haven't seen any convincing evidence that indicates that there was a justifiable reason to kick them off. Even if we don't have enough info, that's not our problem. We and (these people in particular) shouldn't have to somehow defend their innocence. The other side needs to prove their guilt and without any articles or convincing evidence on the internet, you should start to doubt THEIR story, not the story of those that were kicked off the plane.
Somewhat relative; I think more radio stations around the country should do this... Here is a link where you can download and listen to the program in its entirety: http://rope.wmal.com/aud_archive/jk061126.mp3 Radio Spoof Draws Support for Nazi-like Treatment of U.S. Muslims CAIR says callers' reaction is a 'wake-up call' on Anti-Muslim bigotry (WASHINGTON, D.C., 11/27/06) - A parody of anti-Muslim bigotry on a Washington, D.C., radio station drew support for treating American Muslims in a manner similar to how the Jewish community was targeted in Nazi Germany. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said today that the reaction to the parody is a "wake-up call" for religious and political leaders who remain silent on the issue of growing Islamophobia in America. In his 630 WMAL program on Sunday, November 26, talk show host Jerry Klein seemed to advocate a government program to force all Muslims to wear "identifying markers." He stated: "I'm thinking either it should be an arm band, a crescent moon arm band, or it should be a crescent moon tattoo." (4:00) Klein said: "If it means that we have to round them up and do a tattoo in a place where everybody knows where to find it, then that's what we'll have to do." (11:38) [The program focused on public reaction to the removal of six Imams, or Islamic religious leaders, from a US Airways flight in Minnesota last week.] Some callers to the program rejected discriminatory treatment of Muslims, but others supported Klein's statements and even suggested that even more severe measures be taken against American Muslims. "Richard" in Gaithersburg, Md., said: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their foreheads; you round them up and then ship them out of this country, period." (15:58) "Heath" in Upper Marlboro, Md., said: "I don't think you go far enough. . .you have to set up encampments like they did during World War II like with the Japanese and Germans." (23:50) Later in the program, Klein revealed that his call for discriminatory actions against Muslims was "baloney." Klein said: "I can't believe any of you, any of you, are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything that I have said in the last half hour." (25:15)
That is pretty scary to say the least. Muslims, come and buy your guns from me to protect your civil rights when the fascists come knocking. (Sorry, always feel the need to pimp myself. I like money.) If anybody tried to download it and couldn't get it to work it is 8+ megs, and so may take awhile. If I have time after Heroes I will try to slice up some of the choice quotes and make them available for download.
but this isn't a trial. This is an airliner asking people to leave and not commenting on it. The airliner doesn't need to prove anything to us....
As promised, Klein said: "If it means that we have to round them up and do a tattoo in a place where everybody knows where to find it, then that's what we'll have to do." (11:38) "Richard" in Gaithersburg, Md., said: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their foreheads; you round them up and then ship them out of this country, period." (15:58) "Heath" in Upper Marlboro, Md., said: "I don't think you go far enough. . .you have to set up encampments like they did during World War II like with the Japanese and Germans." (23:50) Later in the program, Klein revealed that his call for discriminatory actions against Muslims was "baloney." Klein said: "I can't believe any of you, any of you, are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything that I have said in the last half hour." (25:15)
Oh, it doesn't worry me at all, not one bit, but I can understand how a lot of American Muslims who come across this audio clip would be 'shaken' by it. I think the vast majority of people who harbor such sentiments are cowards by nature, and tend to keep it to themselves for the most part, and would only express these sentiments from the comfort of their own couches (on the Internet, in chat forums, as anonymous callers on radio shows, etc) or around like-minded individuals. Thanks for the offer though, Ottomaton. We have something in common, I like money too. Not at all. What Mr. Klein did was actually pretty ingenious. He did in a sense 'entrap' these callers, but all he really did was expose these nasty individuals for who they are.
I don't know - I find it pretty disingenious though. I mean - seems like he was more about getting a story then anything else. You can always screen callers to get the kind you want...and we all know they are these kinds of people out there. The real question is...how many people out there really think like this? How pervasive is this? We saw how Borat sang "Through the Jew down the well" with a significant part of the audience singing along quite happily and more then a few being absolutely disgusted. I'm sure people like this can be found across rural America, France, Russia, or whereever. You can even find them in New York. Question is are the a vocal minority or a silent majority?
But the airline hasn't offered any evidence to support your POV and has even apologized. The decision to not allow them onto another US Air flight wasn't made at corporate offices but by the US Air staff at MSP. Doesn't it seem more likely that the local staff might've just screwed up and made things worse for US Air? I agree again that we don't know all the facts so it is speculation on both our parts it just seems to me that you're speculation is based on far less info than the facts we know would indicate.
Well, well, well, looks like there was in fact more to this story. Changing seats to control all entry and exit points of the airplane, requesting seatbelt extenders and then not using them, discussing the War on Terror and al Qaeda.... These 'imams' are trying to create public sympathy (psy-ops on the weak-minded) or set people up for a lawsuit. When you openly mimic terrorist strategies while on a plane, you deserve to be removed. They are attempting to create a situation where when a terrorist attack is thwarted, instead of positive recognition being provided to the airline, you get scorn from the public for 'discriminating'. Ridiculous. Read it and weep, imam-apologists: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20061128-122902-7522r_page2.htm How the imams terrorized an airliner By Audrey Hudson THE WASHINGTON TIMES November 28, 2006 Muslim religious leaders removed from a Minneapolis flight last week exhibited behavior associated with a security probe by terrorists and were not merely engaged in prayers, according to witnesses, police reports and aviation security officials. Witnesses said three of the imams were praying loudly in the concourse and repeatedly shouted "Allah" when passengers were called for boarding US Airways Flight 300 to Phoenix. "I was suspicious by the way they were praying very loud," the gate agent told the Minneapolis Police Department. Passengers and flight attendants told law-enforcement officials the imams switched from their assigned seats to a pattern associated with the September 11 terrorist attacks and also found in probes of U.S. security since the attacks -- two in the front row first-class, two in the middle of the plane on the exit aisle and two in the rear of the cabin. "That would alarm me," said a federal air marshal who asked to remain anonymous. "They now control all of the entry and exit routes to the plane." A pilot from another airline said: "That behavior has been identified as a terrorist probe in the airline industry." But the imams who were escorted off the flight in handcuffs say they were merely praying before the 6:30 p.m. flight on Nov. 20, and yesterday led a protest by prayer with other religious leaders at the airline's ticket counter at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport. Mahdi Bray, executive director of the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation, called removing the imams an act of Islamophobia and compared it to racism against blacks. "It's a shame that as an African-American and a Muslim I have the double whammy of having to worry about driving while black and flying while Muslim," Mr. Bray said. The protesters also called on Congress to pass legislation to outlaw passenger profiling. Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee, Texas Democrat, said the September 11 terrorist attacks "cannot be permitted to be used to justify racial profiling, harassment and discrimination of Muslim and Arab Americans." "Understandably, the imams felt profiled, humiliated, and discriminated against by their treatment," she said. According to witnesses, police reports and aviation security officials, the imams displayed other suspicious behavior. Three of the men asked for seat-belt extenders, although two flight attendants told police the men were not oversized. One flight attendant told police she "found this unsettling, as crew knew about the six [passengers] on board and where they were sitting." Rather than attach the extensions, the men placed the straps and buckles on the cabin floor, the flight attendant said. The imams said they were not discussing politics and only spoke in English, but witnesses told law enforcement that the men spoke in Arabic and English, criticizing the war in Iraq and President Bush, and talking about al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. The imams who claimed two first-class seats said their tickets were upgraded. The gate agent told police that when the imams asked to be upgraded, they were told no such seats were available. Nevertheless, the two men were seated in first class when removed. A flight attendant said one of the men made two trips to the rear of the plane to talk to the imam during boarding, and again when the flight was delayed because of their behavior. Aviation officials, including air marshals and pilots, said these actions alone would not warrant a second look, but the combination is suspicious. "That's like shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater. You just can't do that anymore," said Robert MacLean, a former air marshal. "They should have been denied boarding and been investigated," Mr. MacLean said. "It looks like they are trying to create public sympathy or maybe setting someone up for a lawsuit." The pilot with another airline who talked to The Washington Times on condition of anonymity, said he would have made the same call as the US Airways pilot. "If any group of passengers is commingling in the terminal and didn't sit in their assigned seats or with each other, I would stop everything and investigate until they could provide me with a reason they did not sit in their assigned seats." One of the passengers, Omar Shahin, told Newsweek the group did everything it could to avoid suspicion by wearing Western clothes, speaking English and booking seats so they were not together. He said they conducted prayers quietly and separately to avoid attention. The imams had attended a conference sponsored by the North American Imam Federation in Minneapolis and were returning to Phoenix. Mr. Shahin, who is president of the federation, said on his Web site that none of the passengers made pro-Saddam or anti-American statements. The pilot said the airlines are not "secretly prejudiced against any nationality, religion or culture," and that the only target of profiling is passenger behavior. "There are certain behaviors that raise the bar, and not sitting in your assigned seat raises the bar substantially," the pilot said. "Especially since we know that this behavior has been evident in suspicious probes in the past." "Someone at US Airways made a notably good decision," said a second pilot, who also does not work for US Airways. A spokeswoman for US Airways declined to discuss the incident. Aviation security officials said thousands of Muslims fly every day and conduct prayers in airports in a quiet and private manner without creating incidents.
How is it a shame that the airline apologized for kicking people off of a plane who weren't a threat? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do for an airline interested in maintaining good public relations.
The discussion of the War on Terror & Bush and the praying don't bother me. Using that logic, most Americans should be kicked off of planes. The other two are red flags and should have been dealt with. I can see how the first issues could be magnified by the later actions (seat belt extenders and the 2x2xx2 seating) but they should not be used as justification by themselves. I can see either side of this issue. If they were thought to be a threat, they should have been dealt with.
