Jeff -- just understand that from our perspective, it's not some arbitrary distinction. We're not simply saying, "you're not in the gang, so you will burn in hell!!" Our belief is that sin separates man from God...in Judaism, they offered sacrifices in their place to make up for this. Christians believe that Christ was the eternal sacrifice...the amazing gift from God that bridged that gap. the key distinction, again, is the resurrection. Easter is the entire difference. If you believe in the Easter story you believe that a man was dead, but then was alive again three days later. That's pretty atypical!
I understand that and that's fine. Would you say that Presbyterians have a greater respect and openness to other religions as a result? Would they, say, have an open dialogue about Hinduism as part of their studies? I'm just curious as to whether or not that statement of faith, which is really like saying "we just don't know", really does give people more openness towards exploring the concepts of other spiritual traditions. I'm with you on that. Oh, I am. I spent a number of years post my church and school as a Christian in a number of more "hippie-ish" churches. I still identify with Jesus and believe much of what he taught in so far as it often is similar or identical to the spiritual teachings of other religions. I don't see what Jesus did or said as any more or less spiritual or linked to God than what Buddha, Mohammed, Ghandi or Abraham said. They all have truth in them. It is just difficult for me to identify directly with Christianity because it is rare to find a church that doesn't open itself up to other traditions. Of course, this is true of other religions as well which is why I'm not really identified with any specific religious tradition.
Jeff -- as for the differences between religions, again I'd point towards Easter and the resurrection. what He said came to pass. as for presbyterians...no, i wouldn't say it makes us more open to that today. we would still say Christ is the only way we know leads to the Father....the Bible is pretty clear on that. But Presbyterians are known to be a bit more ecumenical than other protestant traditions....though we might disagree with tenants of Catholocism, we would probably be more likely than other Protestant denominations to see the worth in the spiritual aspects of ritual in Mass....or things like that...make sense?? I'm probably not explaining that very well. But you're not going to hear a mainstream Presbyterian minister get up at church and say, "you know, Hindus have some great things to say...their way to God is just as good as Christ." That, in my mind, would be heresy and enough for me to leave a church and find a new one. to me, everything points to the cross and to Easter.
I disagree. Episcopalians are the closest and most understanding Protestants to Catholics and Episcopalian ritual/practices closely resemble Catholics. Of course, the Church of England was not so much protesting Catholocism as it was just a tool for Henry...so he only took out things with the priests that conflicted with his desired lifestyle.
Here is what Pope Pius IX said in 1854 and 1863: "We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?" "It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin." In a nutshell, Pope Pius says that although the Catholic church is the one true religon if you are a good person you will not suffer eternally. In other words, you may be "ignorant" that the Catholic church is the one true religion, but a good person will receive salvation.
rim -- i wouldn't necessarily disagree with you...i grew up in the Episcopal church...was baptized in the Episcopal church. I guess I would have done better to say Presbyterians would more likely than most, but not all, other denominations.... bobrek -- couple of thoughts...keep in mind, I'm Protestant, so I'm colored by that. the pope said that there are people who fall into sin not of their free will...i disagree with that assertion. I believe people are born into a condition of sin...I think the idea that good people can get to heaven on their own merit really diminishes the importance of the cross and resurrection. if there are other ways, I'm betting God wouldn't have turned over Christ to suffer on the cross.
I was too. See, that is why we can communicate in matters such as this and not insult each other. I have never had a strong handle in my mind on Presbyterians, despite attending various churches, reading about them, etc. - don't know why. I always thought, though, that it was closer to Baptism than Catholicism. I would have put Methodists closer to Catholics as well. I could, of course, be wrong. This might not be appropriate for this thread and you can certainly email me, but can you provide any insight into my seeming confusion and why you moved from the Episcopal to Presbyterian church? Don't have to if you don't want to, though.
rim -- I love the Episcopal Church and I find very little difference in the Presbyterian Church other than style of worship. On a scale, particularly in the South, you'd probably put Presbyterian closer to the Catholic end of the scale than you would Methodists. My wife grew up Southern Baptist. She wasn't comfortable with the worship style of the Episcopal Church...I wasn't comfortable with Southern Baptist churches...so we met in the middle!! Actually we visited Methodist and Presbyterian churches...and one Lutheran church, after we got married. We were made to feel most at home and welcome among the congregation we ultimately joined. That church has been an amazing blessing to me and my family ever since. I believe I'm where God wants me to be. I'm less concerned with the national church that I am the congregation I am within. I'm probably among the very most conservative people in that congregation, if that gives you any idea.
As an aside: Could someone entertain me as to the differences between the major Protestant denominations? i grew up in a Southern Baptist household, but my parents were converted by Envangelical missionaries. i went to a non-denominational church in college, and now, i'm off and on at a Presbyterian congregation---as far as i can see, the differences mainly lie in the style of worship, but are there any theological differences between the various branches (i.e. Methodist, Lutheran, Pres., Baptist, S. Baptist, non-denominational, Evangelical, Episcopal, oh my..... )? carry on...
of the ones you mentioned, there aren't a ton of theological differences. they have far more in common than they do in conflict. you are right that presentation of worship can be quite different....
Where to start, where to start … First, you're funny, and you ask good questions. How do I personally know what's God's stuff and what's mine? The first answer would be, very imperfectly, I get it wrong all the time, but I do find that I'm getting better over time. God is good. That's his character, his nature. We/I have a nasty, selfish streak. Sometimes I can feel it as clearly as that. I feel the good urge, and I feel the bad temptation. That duality the human plight, I believe. When I do something really good, I want to thank God. It's almost like it wasn't really me doing it. You know, "Did I do that? I just did what I thought was the right thing and the rest seemed to just happen!?" It feels like I was a conduit, in the right place at the right time, and I just allowed God to work through me. When I screw-up, it's often because I got a little too proud/cocky and figured I knew what the right decision was, and didn't pay enough attention to what I really felt was right. On a broader scale, you can often see/discern things that are truly motivated by good, and others that may on the surface appear to be good, but you can tell are really motivated by self-interest or other less than noble drivers. Pick your favourite corrupt televangelist, or your favourite self-aggrandising protestor as an example. On an even broader scale like natural disasters or the Holocaust, or for things like the sexual abuse of children, I don't have answers for you there. I don't know. Is God a football fan? Sure, isn't everybody? I don't think he has a favourite team though. All: You can see some of the different understandings/beliefs surrounding some of the details of Christianity. I could add a couple of provocative questions myself. For example, Romans 4 talks about how "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." So he was saved by faith before Christ came to earth and without being baptised. This doesn't negate the importance of the sacrifice, IMO, but perhaps opens the door to a more abstract notion of knowing Christ, knowing Christ through knowing God perhaps. http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...-IBS&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english Romans 1:20 suggests that mankind can know God from the world around us, his creation. http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=romans+1:20&language=english&version=NIV-IBS So one can know God without ever reading the Bible or hearing Bible teachings. I'm not saying the Bible isn't useful. As one who lived on a spiritual island for a long time I can clearly say that the Bible and good Christian community are very very helpful, but it seems to me other non-typical paths to God are possible. He did say "seek and you shall find," and "knock and the door will open." I take that as a pretty open invitation. I think these and the other perspectives raised in the thread are interesting points for discussion, but for non-Christians this can be a bit of a diversion, I think. For me the journey was spiritual exploration, not a logical one. For me the questions were more of the, "why are we here," "what's it all about anyway," "and how can X possibly be happening, it just doesn't make sense," variety. But that's my experience. I guess as we get a little deeper into this topic we see more differences in the parts of Christianity that are important to each of us. We all have our own individual walks based on our own experiences, but our faith comes from the same source, and has essentially the same character, I believe. Jeff: Let me try a different kind of question on you. When you were a Christian, what was your spiritual sense of God, not your intellectual sense, just your spiritual sense?
As a person who believes in both God and the bible, I believe that there are many signs unique to our generation that point to the end of time. The biggest of them all would be the plight of Israel. However, there are many, many signs to come before we can say that it is at the door. The bible said that things would be in that day as it was in Noah's day. Though it's pretty close, there were some other things in Noah's day that we should look for today.
I see no mention of "end times" in the Bible. I thought the meek will inherit the Earth. Revelation 18, 1-24 "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons a haunt of every foul and hateful beast. For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxury." "Come out of her, my people, so that you do not take part in her sins, and so that you do not share in her plagues; for her sins are reaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities, her plagues will come in a single day- pestilence and mourning and famine- and she shall be burned with fire; for might is the Lord God who judges her." And the kings of the earth, who commited fornication with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning; And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, gold, silver, jewels and pearls, fine linen, all articles of ivory, costly wood, spice, incense, wine, choice flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots- and human lives. "The fruit of which your soul has longed has gone from you, and all your dainties and your splendor are lost to you, never to be found again!" Revelation 20, 1-4 "Then....the angel seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would decieve the nations no more. Until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while. I saw the souls of those who.... had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Revelation 21, 3-5 And I heard a loud voice saying, "see, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them as their God; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more." I like to follow the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Muhammed, along with many other great teachers.
