Mr_gootan: Oh, OK. So you're saying that people are Christians because they're afraid of being separate from God (ie going to hell, genitals bleeding of their own accord, yadda yadda yadda), while all the believers eventually get to actually be with God. (Sounds awfully like being "fear of being left behind" writ large to me.) Grizzled: I'm not saying that people are Christians solely out of fear - that would be really patronising. Besides, Jesus (or whoever wrote the New Testament!) had some great ideas with a lot of longevity, obviously. But I would argue that Christians who actively "live in a spirit of love" are probably the minority... that fear thing would always be in the back of your mind, wouldn't it? And can't you live in that spirit with a humanist focus, as many agnostics and atheists do? If fear isn't a factor, why believe at all? As you can see, I find Christianity generally very confusing.
I think they are more than ideas, ultimately. I think that it's more of a spiritual thing than an intellectual thing, about faith rather than works. Romans talks about this. (You have to be a bit careful reading Romans though. Paul sets up his readers in a number of places. The end of Romans 1, for example, talks about all sorts of sins. Even the order these are listed in is a set-up, IMO. It was a letter to the Romans, remember, and you can imagine it being read to a crowd gathered around the reader. This section starts by talking about sexual immorality, and you can picture the pious murmurs and perhaps condemnations from the crowd. The list goes on to include gossip, slander, and disobeying ones parents, and you can imagine the murmurers beginning to squirm a bit at this point. The beginning of Romans 2 starts with: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." You can picture the murmurers in full squirm mode at this point. This is what many Christians call being convicted in the spirit, that wonderful realisation that you've been wrong, big time. Thankfully, this realisation, and the liberal dose of humility that comes with it, and the knowledge that we can be forgiven and not have to wallow in pity or guilt, allow us to get back on track and refocus on living in a spirit of love. … but I digress) There is no doubt that some many people who call themselves Christians don't live in this spirit. Jesus even mentions this in Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' This suggests that there are even leaders who don't really operate by, or know, the spirit of Christ. It's not for me to judge who these are, because my perception has its flaws, but it is for us to discern and make personal choices around this discernment. A passage I like that relates to this is Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. About fear. Fear is an interesting word that can be addressed in several different ways is a Christian context. My faith eliminated, simply caused to vanish, huge amounts of confusion and fear from my life. It has answered so many questions and filled so many holes such that I am by comparison almost fearless. We are also told to fear the Lord, by this I understand respect the Lord. If we become smug, proud or complacent with God, our faith and this spirit dims, and that is not a happy place to be. A good passage on the fear of losing the love of God is in Romans 8: 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[13] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. I don't find the humanist focus to be the same. In works it can look very much the same, but in the Christian faith the works come from the spirit. The spirit is the cornerstone. Humanism believes that ultimately we could change our world by our own actions. If only people would all get together and to good things we could make this world a much better place. This is similar to ideal communism, in a sense, and has the same problem. Human nature, the greedy selfish, self-serving, materialistic, yielding to temptation, etc.side of it, won't allow this to happen. The boomers put down their piece signs and flowers and started crawling their way up the corporate ladder so they could buy condos and BMWs. They became disillusioned with their lack of success and started looking out for #1. The true Christian spirit is about living in the spirit, not the end result. Mother Theresa, as a primary motivation, wasn't trying to eradicate suffering, I suspect. She was trying to help people. Some she was able to help, some died, but in the spirit of her actions and her compassion she was being true to the Spirit, true to God's call in her life, and that, I suspect, was her primary motivation. The Humanist religion, if you will, is still centred on this world and the material things in this world. Christian faith and spirit is about a bigger picture. It answers the intrinsic (IMO) spiritual questions and callings that we all have at some point in our lives. Why believe? I believe now because it's easily the truest thing in my life. Everything else could be an illusion, but this I know is true for me. I initially believed because I came to a point where logic and reason broke down in my life, and broke down for me period. I knew that they couldn't explain things that were going on with me or in the world. There had to be another spiritual reality. So I started exploring, and then had what I could completely inadequately call an epiphany. That's not the end of it though. There was whole lot of growing and learning and lesser epiphanies after that. Growing in the spirit is a lifelong process, I believe. But hey, once you learn to accept those wonderfully humbling experiences, there is a lot of cool knowledge and wisdom to look forward to. Oh dear. I've been long winded again. What is it with us Canadians, eh? It seems that we all have this tendency to go on and on endlessly.
You know what I fear?? A life in the here and now without Christ. I guess I'm one of those "weaklings" Ted Turner talked about...but the very thought chills me. Life sucks a lot of the time...things are sometimes difficult to deal with and understand. Without faith in a loving God, I, personally, would feel quite empty...I know, because I have before. Jesus did have some great ideas, dimsie...but if that's all he had he was an absolute lunatic for suffering death on a cross for them.
1) I don't believe that humanism has no 'bigger picture', or that humanism is a solely action-based rather than thought or "spirit" based philosophy. 2) 'Living in the spirit rather than looking out for the end result' feels like an excuse for not fixing problems we could *clearly* get under control if we wanted to (say, world hunger). That's what's annoyingly complacent about Christianity and many other religions, to me. 'Oh well, if I do my best god will sort it out!' This, IIRC, is the same omniscient, omnipotent, and loving god whose official policy on the Holocaust was 'no comment'. I dunno, my Canadian friend. In my youth, I tried (much to the horror of my mother!) to believe in this stuff, but the more I think about it the more it seems, inherently, like a crock of (man-made) sh*t. I'm just not cut out to believe, I suppose.
I think you might be selling Jesus (and every other political, social and religious revolutionary) short. Jesus, putting aside the religious implications of his life, was a political and social revolutionary. He changed the very way Jews were viewed, how Gentiles were to prosper and what Roman occupation actually meant. There have been many, MANY great people who have suffered and died for great ideas. It might be a tad unfair to categorize them as lunatics for suffering death for them no matter how harsh a death it may have been. Even if Jesus wasn't God's son or a prophet or whatever, he changed the world by living AND dying the way he did. There is no lunacy in that.
Well, that was an admittedly short and inadequate characterisation. But humanism does not believe in anything greater than us and this physical world, right? That's the textbook definition anyway. If someone is truly doing their best, what else could they do? I know, you're talking about the people who use the name of God as an excuse not to do something they should be doing. I'm with you there. But I see acting by the spirit as much more enduring. They often hang-in in situations that look hopeless because they believe that the act of trying is right in itself. Christian organisations are all over the world feeding the hungry, and are active and politically active in North America too. http://www.bread.org/hungerbasics/domestic.html Yes, mankind could deal this world hunger but the reality is that we probably won't, because the negative side of human nature, corruption, greed, etc. will get in the way somewhere. But Christians will still be there trying. In my experience, it's the humanists who are more likely to see something as hopeless and give up. I don't know what you're referring to specifically so I'd be guessing if I tried to respond. Generally I'd say that yes, very bad things happen in the world and no, I don't know why they all happen. God granted us as a people a measure of free will, and we have done some horrible things with it. And yet, other bad things just seem to happen for no reason. I understand why some bad things have happened in my life, and invariably I have learned things from them that have turned out to be positives. No, I don't extend this reasoning to the Holocaust. I have no answer for you there. And I might have said that one day myself. So never say never. One thought I might offer is that I don't see it as an external belief system to cling to. That's not how I came to it. The fact that there are others who believe similar things to me is nice, but it's almost incidental. That other's even existed is something I figured out after the fact. (I saw Christians as being "crazy fundamentalists" who I couldn't relate to.) I became a Christian on my own and I didn't even start going to church until years later. So I believe the journey is essentially a personal and internal one, although it is very helpful to have the support of a community. It has to be a community you're comfortable with, though. I hang with the socially conscious, politically active, Christian lefties.
Quite true, Jeff...good points. But He was not put to death for those ideas...he was put to death because he was viewed to be a threat. They mocked him as King of the Jews...they considered him a heretic for indicating he could pardon sin...It seems to me here he was either liar, lunatic or Lord (not my words...credit to C.S. Lewis for that one!). I just have a hard time with those who say, "Jesus was a great teacher!!" It seems to me that he was either a nutcase or he was the Son of God. He may have been a real nice nutcase with some good and different ideas! But without the resurrection, he is ultimately largely inconsequential, in my opinion.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. There are a couple of really interesting books on Jesus as a social and political figure that include his religious significance: Jesus the Rebel : Bearer of God's Peace and Justice -- John Dear Four Faces : A Journey in Search of Jesus the Divine, the Jew, the Rebel, the Sage -- Mark Tully By your standards, however, Ghandi was a nut for having a hunger strike. Mother Theresa was a nut for living among lepers. "Give me liberty or give me death" was simply an act of lunacy. I like Lewis, but I'm not sure that you have to believe that Jesus was either God or crazy for him to be beneficial to either people individually or as a whole. He has had, IMO, a tremendous impact on non-Christians who believe he was neither the Son of God nor a crazy person. I think you might be selling him a little short.
Actually Jeff, I would argue you're selling him short. I believe He is the very incarnation of God and worship Him!! He's a little more important to me than Thomas Paine, Gandhi or Mother Theresa. Gandhi went on a hunger strike...he didn't offer up his life on a cross. Neither did Mother Theresa. They were both amazing servants and amazing individuals. People FIGHT for liberty all the time...I have indicated before I would lay my life down for it. But ultimately, that's still selfish...I'm fighting for myself. Christ went to the cross for everyone but Him. I really don't mean to deemphasize the importance of leaders like those you pointed out....I just think they pale in comparison to the risen Christ.
MadMax: come on. People 'die to save others' *all the time*. Christians say Jesus' death is more important than those deaths because his death is for *everyone*, but I can't really see how his death is more important than someone else's sacrifice. In order to buy that, you'd have to believe he was, like, the son of God or something! My fellow Commonwealthian: This is another thing that annoys/confuses me. If something incredibly bad happens, it's usually our fault because we have 'free will'. If something incredibly good happens, the guy with the beard (or if you're a Unitarian, the gal or sexless thing) in the sky is always responsible. Why do people thank God when good things occur, but not blame him when bad ones do? Isn't he watching over football games and rooting for one side over the other and keeping tabs on, you know, *everything*, according to Christianity? I'll say one thing for God: dude has great PR.
That's why you are a Christian and I am not. I think what never ceases to surprise me is how Christianity treats the successes of other religious leaders. For you, Ghandi was just some guy on a hunger strike. For others, he is their religious and spiritual leader. Most Buddhists believe that Jesus was as holy and sacred as the Buddha, yet Christians believe Buddhists are going to hell. It is the exclusionary nature of Christianity that caused me to lose interest in the Christian religion. It just seems very disrespectful of the myriad of spiritual and religious traditions practiced by people for thousands of years.
Christianity is not exclusionary. Christ offers salvation to EVERYONE. The point is that Christ alone is salvation. I didn't write that...it's not something I just made up. If you truly believe He is the only son of God and that He is a gift of reconciliation, then everyone else can't help but pale in comparison. He IS God. He was there at the creation, in my belief. There is quite a difference between the Creator and everything and everyone that is created. I don't KNOW Buddhists are going to hell...what I have from scripture indicates that Christ is it...that all else falls short...but I'm open to the possiblity of God redeeming anyone. dimsie -- free will and God's control are constantly in conflict with one another...ultimately I believe it's something that can never be fully comprehended by people...i do believe they both exist, despite the perceived tension. Yes, I give credit for God doing things in my life...for giving me certain attributes or gifts that have allowed me to do certain things....but, no, I do not give God credit for all the choices I make that are outside of His hope for me. Most Christians wouldn't tell you God wanted the Patriots to win the Super Bowl, so they did...but Patriots' fans might be thankful to God for the God-given talents that Tom Brady possesses. All of this is complicated by God making hard the heart of Pharoh. Here, God makes Pharoh's heart hard and unaccepting to God. Of course, this is after Pharoh himself openly denied God time and time again. Ultimately...I believe God is God whether or not you want Him to be or not. Think about that...if all the Bible claims about God is true, does it really affect his divinity, supremacy, or nature at all if you choose not to believe???? No...you are the created...He is the creator.
I believe very much in God and Jesus, but the entire history and organization of religion has left a sour taste in my mouth. Just view almost every fight in the world today. Israel, Sudan, India, Yugoslavia, Chechna All of these battles rage to allegedly bring glory to their lord, yet I feel glorification of religion is the ultimate form of capitalism in that one can control others minds, bodies and souls for their own personal benefit simply by utilizing the word "God." What else is a better drug for the poor and miserable than the thought of everlasting paradise. Go...go work on these lands and serve your king who is the head of the Church, betray him and you betray God!............Go..suicide bomber, this life is but a particle of sand to the sea that is paradise, there you will recieve virgins and fruits..now go kill for me.. There is a saying that man created God in his own image, but I believe it seems more that man perversed the teachings of God for personal benefit. That is why I love the United States and the separation of Church and State. I feel humans do not have the ability to not look at their own marginal benefit from the power they recieve as a representative of God. Look at how man has changed religion. The Catholic church forces men to forego thousands of years of instinct to mate, trying to stop something natural and look what it created. Celibacy in the Catholic Church began in the 1100's when individual Priests became rich and would pass the land to their children and family instead of the Church getting all the money. In Islam, the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, after knowing his first wife for years in a business relationship, married her in a respectable fashion and she became one of his most trusted advisors.
It should be kept in mind that from the First through Fifth centuries that many Christians thought of Jesus as extremely important in his teachings and salvation, despite the fact that they didn't believe that he ever even existed. I cut off in the Fifth century because that was when what we now know as mainstream Catholocism won, thus, reducing the numbers of non-literalist Christians. Of course, they existed after and even to this day, they just were not as big/influential.
Let me re-phrase. In Christianity, salvation is exclusionary. Now, you may be open to the possibility, but that isn't the norm among Christians. That "whoever does not believe in him shall be damned" business seems pretty clear to most Christians. When I went to Lutheran schools, I was taught in religion class that the Hare Krishnas whose temple was about a block from us (oh, the irony) were cultists who were going to hell. In fact, they are Hindus, but that is another discussion. I was also taught that Jews were good people who were also going to hell as were Buddhists and Muslims and atheists and anyone else who didn't accept that Jesus Christ was the ONLY Son of God and the ONLY way to heaven. I'm glad you are open minded about it, but you are an exception to the rule.
Jeff, I can understand what you are saying even though I do not agree with it. To say "In Christianity, salvation is exclusionary" is only true if you do not want to accept the belief which would would make it more of a personal choice. To say it is exclusionary makes it sound as if you feel that certain people cannot experience salvation which is not the case. Like I said I understand your meaning although I not agree with it. I am Pentacostal and our religion feels that in order to be properly baptized everone must be baptized in Jesus Name and repent for the remission of their sins as outlined in the book of "ACTS" and very specificlly in Acts 2:38 As much as I believe this to be true I also believe that anyone with a desire and Love for the Lord and has accepted Jesus Chris as his savior will go to heaven no matter what religion they are. I may be wrong but it sounded like you had a bad experience in Lutheran School. I went to a Catholic School for a few years and I would not wish that upon anyone
Jeff -- I'm not sure how different I am for my interpretation. I know PCUSA (the Presbyterian Church, USA) has adopted a statement on Christ which basically says what I said...Yes, we believe Christ is the only way...but we're not about to say we limit God to only that way...He might very well redeem others. It is not my place to say who is saved and who isn't. I think a lot of focus on Christianity is misplaced. Christ said the Kingdom of God is NOW...it's here!! Eternity begins TODAY!! Not after you die. I think often everyone is looking towards the after-life, when Christ is every bit as much about the here and now. Jeff, you've been open and kind enough to share with us your stories of experiences with "christianity" amongst your family and the church you grew up in. I hope you're able to see the beauty of Christ's spirituality through that fog...we're all colored by our own personal experiences with things. As I've mentioned before, my faith is based far more on personal experience than it is on Bible study. Rimbaud -- huh??? you've lost me again!! i didn't realize there was a debate in the 5th century on the existence of Christ among Christians. Don't we have ample historical evidence to document that there was in fact a man named Jesus who was hung on a cross and had a great following?? Again...I don't think the apostles would march to their torment and death for made up stories and lies. Rockss -- I've never understood the Pentecostal view on baptism in the name of Jesus...there are many examples of baptisms in the New Testament....some have "in the name of Jesus"...others have "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." I've never understood why there was separation among Christians over this issue. Seems to me if you're baptizing in the name of "the Son" (even amongst the rest of the Trinity) you're staying within the parameters of baptizing in the "name of Jesus"...unless of course, the name Jesus itself has some sort of magical quality to it. But like you, I believe Christianity is an inward experience with God...you either have that on going relationship with Him or you don't...whether you dunk, sprinkle or whatever. The ritual of baptism is man reaching to God in acceptance of a gift...but Christianity is largely about God reaching to man, in my view. We also stand in agreement on repentance. Repentance is sincerity when asking for forgiveness from sins, in my opinion.
Max, Yeah, basically for the first 400 or so years of its existence Christianity was split about equally between literalists and symbolists in regards to Christ (although there literally seemed to be 100's of forms of Christianity in the really early stages, they settled mostly within one of the two main camps). We have records from symbolist writers that speak of no historical documents speaking about an actual Jesus. Origen, for example, pointed out that the biggest historian of the time, Josephus, never spoke of Jesus in any of his accounts of the region, etc. It didn't matter, though - it was (I guess) the equivalent of spiritual debates between Catholics and Protestants (although it never seemed to have gotten as bloody). The main point of my comment, though, was to point out the power of the message - such that a physical Christ was not even needed for some. It had nothing to do with making up stories, though, even by those who believed he did not exist. It is simply a different view of religion and was more common during Late Antiquity than religions based upon real people.
But, if you are a Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim or Jew, you don't accept that Jesus is your Savior. I'm not talking about the difference between Pentacostal or Episcopal or Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic. Hindus believe in many, MANY Gods. Buddhists don't believe in the existence of God in the way Christians do. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet like Mohammed (but not necessarily equal to). Jews believe the Messiah is still on the way. You define those who will attain salvation as "anyone with a desire and Love for the Lord and has accepted Jesus Christ as his savior." By that definition, it DOES exclude all other religions because they no more accept those beliefs than Christians accept the beliefs of Taoists.
