Neither one of us are inside of Paytons head, but we could assume like everyone else. Just because Foyle and Fortson provide them with rebounding and defense. How do you think philly wins without a post threat? Cassel,Thomas,Mason and Redd provides Milw with more than enough in offense. Its true Houston is better than GS, but by how much? Add Payton along with Jamison,Richardson,Murphy and a lotto pick, and that team could leapfrog Houston. Not to mention that Payton is from Oakland, that only adds gravy to it. If Payton really wants to compete for a ring in the east, he could probably do a sign and trade with Indy. Imagine Payton with O'Neal,Artest,and both Millers. They could win the East easily and be a real threat with Payton.
An e-mail from Donald Sterling to 27 NBA teams... Hello NBA Executives, The Houston Rockets have just offered my organization Cuttino Mobley and Eddie Griffin for Elton Brand. While I am still unclear what direction I want to take with the ongoing rebuilding of my team, I was curious what alternative offers may be available for discussion. Thanks, DS Sample return responses from NBA teams... Celtics: DS, with the exception of Pierce and Walker, take your pick of whatever contracts you need to match a re-signed Brand. Since you're most likely to lose Olawakandi and Miller, may we suggest Tony Battie who has a reasonable contract for 3 more seasons and a re-signed JR Bremer who is really cheap compared to Andre Miller. Possibly Walter McCarty for the right deal. We have a future first from Philly...can't have too many picks, right DS? Miami: Thanks for the heads up. Since we will both be well under the cap and not concerend about BYC statuses after some player renouncements, how about Caron Butler and your choice of 2 of Malik Allen, Eddie House, Mike James or Ken Johnson re-signed cheap and LaPhonso Ellis re-signed short and cheap at the vet minimum. Anthony Carter has a player option, so maybe he's in the mix once he decides. Of course, we also have some attractive future picks for you. Orlando: DS, Gooden and Giricek are on their rookie contracts and we could probably work out a real good deal with Shawn Kemp who is currently just over $1m. You'd take take him re-signed for the vet min or a little above for short-term, right? We are also owed a lot of future firsts if you want to talk further. New Jersey: Kenyon Martin and Aaron Williams for a re-signed Brand works for us. (Note to self - tell Kidd that Brand is coming to NJ). Philadelphia: Donald, Larry here...we're working on an excellent salary package offer for Kenny Thomas. Yea, he'll be BYC but you're under the cap. How about we throw in either McKie or Snow? Any interest? Atlanta: DS...new management here...lots of future picks, can you dig it? I think we can get close with Nazr Mohammed and Dan Dickau and some picks...oh, yea..the doctors have cleared DerMarr for some full contact. Get back to us. Detroit: Looks like you may need to replace Miller? Billups is locked up for 4 more seasons and never tops $7m. We could get Zeljko or Mehmet re-signed real cheap...you are looking for a center, right? We'd hate to lose him, but Uncle Cliffie has 1 more year for $5.5m...And should we remind you that we have Memphis's 1st rounder this year or next? Cleveland: Re-sign Brand and take your pick from Mihm, Diop, DeJuan Wagner, or Boozer to add to Ricky Davis...good protection in case you lose Odom and Davis is locked reasonably until 2008. Don't forget we have Toronto's 1st due by 2008. (Note to self: A healthy Z-man, LeBron, Brand...EC Finals here we come...I won't tell him, but I'll give him any 3 of the 4 I mentioned to go along with Davis). Toronto: DS - We're currently #3 in the Lottery...hint...hint...Alvin Williams, Micheal Bradley, Jerome Williams or Mo Peterson mean anything to you?...get back to us soon. Dallas: DS - Mark Cuban here. Hey, Bradley's real cheap for 3 more seasons with some options after that. How about we throw in a re-signed Najera or Adrian Griffin or Raja Bell, perhaps Rigaudeau...he's real cheap and it looks like you may lose Pike. Hey, you know me, money is no object...let's get this done now...how about lunch tomorrow...I'll be out in my private jet... Mobley + Griffin for Brand = the definition of Dreamcasting.
your kidding right? MO T may have the shooting touch, but he can't rebound and d-up. I'd do this trade in a second, if the Bucks were crazy enough to even think about it...
In looking at different team's forums I have to say that Rocket fans are the most imaginative when it comes to proposing trades. Another word, however, would be delusional.
Mobley and Griffin looks more attractive to me than most of those offers you posted GATER. Specifically, I wouldn't trade them for the packages offered by Boston, Jersey, Philly, Detroit, and Dallas.
UTweezer, are you reading my post??I have already said I would love to have Payton on this team if it was just for Mo T.Look at the original post, That was what I was referring to.
I think you have totally missed the point. Mobley + Griffin is the absolute best offer the Rockets can put forward to the Clipps. Most of the examples I used are EC teams and the examples would be their starting offers. BTW, you're trying to tell me that Mobley + Griffin has more value than Kenyon Martin + Aaron Williams? Just curious, you don't have NBALP, do you? Also, EG + Cat for a re-signed Thomas + Eric Snow? I got a deal for you...start a thread or poll trading Mobley and Griffin to Philly for KT & Snow and watch the response.
Hey! What about the first round draft pick included?!? EG and Cat for Elton won't work anyways.....because salary issues. Payton has already said he doesn't want to return to Milwaukee. SO YEAH.
GATER, While a deal for Brand would be awesome and I do still think there is a chance, even slim, that we can get him, I am not completely discounting it as you are. The "starting" deals you put on the table in your above post for alternative Brand deals from other teams for the most part, in my opinion, are NOT better than a Mobley/Griffin deal. You made your point in that other teams will want to put up THEIR offers but the offers you put up I just don't think are better. A few of them are either comparable or better but most are not. The only deals you have there that I would look at besides the Houston one would be Toronto (#3 pick and someone) and NJ (Martin and someone). I think those deals could probably beat the Rockets deal but that is about it. The bottom line, in a vaccuum getting Brand for Mobley and Griffin does not happen. Brand is a much better talent. But when you are dealing with 1) Clippers and 2) the fact that they could lose Brand for nothing, you find yourself having a chance to make this deal work. One thing we know. Since we know the Clippers are not going to resign Brand to a huge contract (Given their past history with contracts) then this summer Brand will either be traded or sign the 1 year tender offer this summer to play with the Clippers next year and then walk away for NOTHING. So it is NOW or NEVER for the Clippers this summer if they want to get something for Brand.
Gater: put in some money or a draft pick with EG and Cat, and you may very well have a deal. I don't think there are many better offers out there for the Clippers.
I really do think that both trades are manageable, Rice+Mo-T and maybe some money or a draft pick for Payton is a good trade for Milwaukee. And EG + Cat and some money or a draft pick is one of the best offers out there for the Clippers. So make it happen.
Deuce - Perhaps I got carried away with all of the examples. But my fundamental point is/was that this summer there are many teams with picks, cap space and a real fire to expedite their rebuilding process to the point that they would take some real risks and overbid for Brand (Atlanta and Toronto come to mind quickly). The Rox are close enough that they won't (actually can't) take a big a risk as many EC teams IMHO. I was hoping that would be enough to add a bit of objectivity to this thread and the multiple dozens of Brand threads pending this summer. However...there is more. Making a trade for Elton Brand without a SnT for his contract extention has an additional complication. If you only make the trade (let's assume Sterling loves Mobley & Griffin) and he plays out 2003-04 as a Rocket, the Rox will almost assuredly have to max him next summer or lose him to a higher bidder. IOW, the Rox will have his Bird Rights, but if they don't max, someone else will and they have lost both the traded players and Brand. This would be true for any team that made the trade pre-contract extention signing trade. However, what if Sterling says "OK, everybody...step right up...I'm not going to max Brand, but I'll consider any SnT to a team that Elton will sign an extention on and with a deal I like."? This changes a few things. Brand can't be extended until after August 1st. And more than likely some team will give him the max extension for 2003-04. The extension will be about $10m and may or may not make Brand BYC depending upon how Sterling has handled (renounced or traded) Miller, Odom and Maggette. Here's the crux of the matter. If Brand is BYC...it will be nearly impossible to get him. Unless there's an under the cap team that would really like to "donate" Brand to Houston. What chips do we have here? Not many IMO. If Brand is not BYC...the Rox do not have $10m worth of contracts palletable to Sterling....he will absolutely exclude Taylor, Rice and Cato. Posey, Morris, Hawkins and Maddox would all become BYC. So my conclusion here is thus...even if Sterling loved Cat and EG, there is still about $2.4m needed in matching contracts (no one better mumble Moochie...no way). So you're back to needing a 3rd team who wouldn't mind seeing Houston with Brand. I suppose you could start "what-if'ing" by adding other Clipps, but the bottomline is Griffin and Mobley are the only two commodities in a straight up 2 team trade...and they aren't enough $-wise. Now you see why I choose to go down the "value of Cat + EG" route?
GATER, I do know that there are some outlandish trade rumors out there that are ridiculous. And while I really want Brand I am not an idiot...I know that the chances are SLIM to get him. But, I don't think that it is a complete pipe dream. That is all I am saying. The only way I see the Rockets obtaining Brand is via a S&T because I firmly believe that if any NBA team tries to sign Brand to an offer sheet this offseason that the Clippers will match it and thus keep Brand hostage for 7 more years. I believe that Brand will stay in Clipperdom if he feels management will build a winner (sign players, keep players). But he is not going to sign anything until he see signs that point to this. So, the only way to get Brand is to make a deal with the Clippers, Brand and his agent David Falk in a S&T deal. The Rockets have done well for Falk and his client Mo Taylor so we have a history of taking care of players. If we can get Falk on our side in this thing perhaps he could broker a deal. Certainly the Rockets best tradable assets are Mobley and Griffin. And they would have to be involved in any "big" deal. Those are the principals and then you throw in players to match it salarywise. Perhaps the Rockets even throw in a 1st round draft pick in '05 since the Clippers like draft picks. Let's face it, if the Rockets got Brand, Francis and Yao, we are not going to look for more young talent but look for more vetaran talent to build the team around so 1st rounders are not as important to the team at that stage if this scenario bares out. I think we are both basically saying the same thing here that getting Brand would be difficult and not likely but that there is still a chance it could happen. And I think we both agree that getting Brand would be a good thing for this team!
Gater, why would NJ trade Kenyon Martin, he's doing quite good there, and plays decent defense as well. He fits well in that offense. Plus he has Finals experience. Brand has never been out of the lottery.
You know what keeps creeping into my mind? Utah will wind up with Brand and Miller. If they come out the gate and offer Brand 7yrs 80mill and Miller 7 yrs60mill, both will be gone and the rockets will be fighting Utah again and again. Make no bones about it, after the season, Utah will have enough for 2 max players, but since Miller had a poor season, they won't have to pay that much for him. I'm willing to bet, after July 1st, Jerry sloan will be calling Brand and Miller to start the new version of Stocton to Malone combo. Those are 2 players who could actually play under the old school ways of sloan. Miller,Harpring,AK-47 and Brand would be a very,very tough team to play. Utah could even wait until after next season when Ostertag salary comes off the books if the choose to.
From everything I have read (and was reported again in a Marc Stein article yesterday) the Clippers WILL match any offer for Brand this summer. So, I don't think Utah will get their hands on him this summer. Perhaps Miller but probably not Brand. Utah's best chance to get Brand would be for him to sign the 1 year tender offer this summer with the Clippers and try to sign Brand NEXT summer when he is an unrestricted FA. I know people "follow" the money for the most part in the NBA but I have to think that if things are equal most NBAers are not to keen on living in Utah. Big strike against them for potential free agents.
HD- Primary reason NJ considers the trade. Martin gets his numbers in the EC playing with Jason Kidd. Brand gets better numbers than Martin and he goes against the Duncans, Webbers and Malones of the WC. Further, Brand has one of the best work ethics in the entire NBA and there is no telling how far NJ could go with a real low post threat (to balance their FB game) because they already have a PG who knows how to feed the post. If I were to use your logic, there's no EC playoff team that would trade for Steve Francis 'cause he's never been out of the Lottery either. Bottomline - the Clipps are in the Lottery in spite of Brand, not because of him.
I would give up Cuttino Mobley, Eddie Griffin, Bostjan Nachbar, Terence Morris, and a 1st round pick for Elton Brand. I would even give up my hero Juaquin Hawkins too for Elton Brand.
