SI.Com-Rox one of five teams that have taken a step backwards this offseason

Yes, because they measure who is more productive and gives you a better chance to win when they play (Chuck Hayes) rather than who gets more minutes despite not deserving them and who hurts your team (Howard).

You just answered your own question as to why he didn't play: Surprise, it's because he's a 19 year old who gets into foul trouble. He was still a much better player than Juwan when he was out there - and will likely only get better with more PT. Howard has been declining from an all-star to an albatross.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was. Go back and look up the old numbers on 82 games.com if you like, but I don't particularly care, because it's not relevant.

Why? Because you're intentionally ignoring that not only are Frye, Krstic, Jefferson better shooters than Howard, but they are better scorers as well on a per minute basis. Cato was not a very good /minute scorer.

The 1996 All star game is not relevant to who is a better player now - the answer is clearly Jefferson.

You don't seem to comprehend how truly bad Howard is, and how much the Rockets suffer when he is on the floor. It's plain as day.

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506HOU.HTM

When he is on the floor, the Rockets play worse . When he is off, they play better . This is a proven fact.

.

So you're telling me, playing less than half as many minutes as Juwan, he scored nearly 2/3 as many points and 2/3 as many rebounds?

Fact: Jefferson is more productive when on the court than Howard.

How you keep using "good" and Howard in the same sentence is funny as hell.

I'll repeat it again:
Fact: Jefferson is more productive when on the court than Howard.

 

Crash you are wasting your time, Sam will not be convinced he is hiding behind statistics rather than logic.

DD

 

LMFAO, post of the decade.

 

Apples to apples mate...not the same team, not the same role.........

This year he will be asked to do something different in a complimentary role.

The question is....can he compliment THIS YEAR'S team?

IMHO, the answer is yes.....every year the factors are different and weigh in unmesurable ways, that is why statistics like you are spewing out are a piece of the puzzle but not absolutes, which is what you are presenting them as....

Yao is a different player, Sura at the point versus Rafer. Etc..etc..etc..etc...all factors in a player's analysis and not necessarily reflected in his stats.

Also, what was his role during that year? For instance 2 years ago, Yao was not the same player and thus Juwan's role this year as a starting PF will be significantly different than it was 2 years ago......but whatever, bury yourself in statistics like some poker players, and I will continue to take their money, and your candy !

DD

 

The NBA runs some programs with that, you should look into them.

Have somebody read this to you:

the point is Juwan was just as much of an abortion playing with good players as he was playing with bad ones- playing in the same city, in the same offense, in the same role, in the same uniform.

But yes, I agree, he will be very complimentary "Nice dunk yao!", other than that, he is the same ****ty piece he has always been in a Rockets uniform.

 

You can make up anything you want Sam, it doesn't change the argument.

Each year teams have different players.....

The best example of how Howard can fit into a Yao, Tmac and Battier team is Antoine Walker, a player most people loathed, and somehow contributed to a championship team.

Juwan is not the problem, Yao and Tracy's health were the problem. Juwan can be a productive player, not an all star, but a productive player who either comes of the bench or starts and provides a decent compliment to our big 3.

And it is going to drive you crazy that I was right again and you.....consitently wrong.

DD

 

Then explain to me WHY HE WAS NOT ONE LAST YEAR OR THE YEAR BEFORE WHEN THEY WERE BOTH HEALTHY?

I agree your track record of predictions speaks for itself. Iif you were the Rockets GM we'd be watching a squad of Bostjan Nachbar, Malick Badiane, Dan Langhi, Dan Dickau, and Kelvin Cato.....and we'd be doing it over our portable Gizmondo wi-fi's.

Too bad the rest of the world doesn't share your singular genius.

 

IT DEPENDS ON WHAT HIS ROLE IS DURING THAT PARTICULAR YEAR AND WHAT HE IS ASKED TO DO....COMPRENDE?????????????????

Uh, talking about players and thinking they might amount to something does not mean you feel they are quality. The only one on your list above that I thought might really amount to something was Boki, the rest I thought could be small bit players in a bigger puzzle.

As for the Gizmondo, that is just a low CLASSLESS blow, as I had to let go of over 100 good friends because our CEO and another director stole millions of dollars and sunk our company, NOT because of any fault of the staff or the product, but you would not know this, because you are too busy trying to stuff statistics into an argument and making PERSONAL insults in a childish display.

You are better than that, and I expect you to act with more dignity next time, muchacho !

DD

 

I doubt Chuck Hayes could keep his efficiency up for long periods as I've heard he wasn't conditioned enough last season. Howard stats also looked worse than they should have because he generally played against the opposing teams' best. With that said, I agree with Sam that Howard was probably the most useless starting PF last season.

I don't think the Rockets had a lot of options at PF. Swift performed much better at the PF spot even though he made dumb plays and isn't a great center. Chuck supposedly wasn't fit enough to play long minutes, but he still should have played a few more per game.

 

Not according to JVG and CD, and others, Swift was a monumental failure especially on defense constantly getting out of position and causing others to have to cover for his lack of mental abilities.

Stats may say that Swift was better, but was Swift playing against the other teams 2nd PF, or its starter? How often was he playing as a starter versus as a sub?

How often was Swift playing with Yao and Tmac, versus Deke and Bogans?

Stats are part of the equation but not absolutes.

DD

 

SamFisher,

My favorite computer game character.

I've seen you on the bbs for a long time now but never really noticed you taking so many personal jabs before. Maybe I just did not notice or maybe its just done in what seems like a heated discussion to you.

Fact is that you make some good points but your unwillingness to bend even slightly coupled with the fact that you seem to become incensed when someone does not agree with you completely overshadows the good points you might be making.

Maybe you should take a breath and cool down a while.

You posts made me go back and look at Frye, Jefferson and Krstic. IMO, Krstic was your best argument. Frye and Jefferson are both still a little raw to me. I don't know.

Anyway I am more than willing to debate JHo all day long. But the personal jabs are a little old. I see DD doing it all the time but he usually follows them up with or which tells me he's just kidding around.

Bottom line is that you made some good points but you come across as radical in your beliefs that Juwan is the worst power forward in the league and has no value.

BTW, shooting 44% is not a bad percentage....particularly when so many of the shots are mid range jumpers

 

I wish I could remember who it was that said, "there are 3 kinds of lies...lies, damn lies and stats!"

Of course I will be the 1st to throw stats around when it suites my argument.

 

Mark Twain in his autobiography in 1924 but quote probably originated from Disraeli

 

yeah lets cool it on the hostility guys........i have to think that CD has some other potential deals going on behind closed doors there is no way hed let us go into the season with yao and tracy as our only scoring options

 

And that's precisely the point I have been making to you for 3 days now to the point of it being absurd. . He had a reduced role in 2005 vis a vis 2006. And the result was the same awful productivity.. Fortunately there was superior depth around him to compensate. Last year we weren't so lucky. It doesn't change the fact that he's a net drain then and now. (Tellingly, you're arguing that Howard does better playing less, while Crash is arguing the opposite, he's more valuable when he plays more. LOL, obviously you both can't be right - and you aren't -- the numbers show that he's equally ineffective no matter what.)

You have not made a single fact based argument that is not contradicted by all available evidence. I bear responsibilty for bothering to respond perpetuating this silliness, granted, but you just won't stop.

Oh please, your predictions of greatness for players (in any sport) you take a liking to based on nothing factual or logical happen so often I've lost track (such as right now in this thread, e.g.). Quite honestly the fact that you keep brining up Nachbar, who was ultimately a failure no matter what/who/where he played illustrates this. Yes, you won that bet, he was sufficiently capable of being a regular backup on a horrible team. But big deal, the guy was still a marginal NBA player and turned out to be ass, as the evidence indicated at the time, no matter where he played for, or what system, unlike what you predicted.

Really, the only reason why I can figure that you keep bringing it up is to get a rise out of me, and congratulations, you did so I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by brinigng up Gizmondo. Anyway I brought up all that stuff to remind you that predictions and sure things don't always work out, despite your fabulous success in the past with respect to Nachbar which you always mention, like a broken record, like the majority of your posts.

 

I also said that Yao Ming was someone we should take a chance on, and that Novak & Redick will both be contributing players in the NBA, and that Gilbert Arenas was a star in the making as was Antwan Jamison.

The difference is that I am not afraid to take a stand and tell people what I think and dare to be wrong.

Juwan sucking is not an issue, clearly he is NOT that great of a player..BUT...can fill a role ala Antoine Walker on a winning team.

I will never be swayed by pure stats alone, life is more than statistics, and basketball is MUCH more about chemistry and roles and understand those roles than about any Moneyball number.

DD

 

Let's put it like this, Juwan Howard is servicable, despite being terribly inefficient.

 

Yep, if you predict an inordinate number of people to succeed, then no doubt you will be right on occasion, albeit your percentage will suffer. of course, it's just like Juwan Howard - it's not hard to score 13 points if you take a lot of shots.

And you're right, it's more than just stats. I figured out that Howard sucked last year watching him play live against the Jazz before looking at a single stat- I mean, did he ever look like he was really tearing it up last year? Antoine Walker plus Udonis Haslem can win you a championship. Juwan Howard playing over 20 minutes a game cannot - which is why he was the worst starting PF in the league last year (or at least tied with the worst) and why Swift was to take over. Of course that didn't work out and we're left with Howard with more mileage. Hooray.

 

Is he the best? Heck no ! But he only has to fill his role for this team to be successful, and shooting 44% is not bad.

If he gives us 12 ppg and 6 rpg while shooting 44-45% then that is probably good enough along with Hayes and Novak.

But whatever, you think he sucks, I think he is not great, but ok.

I think he doesn't have to be great for the Rockets to succeed, apparently you think we need a better player at the PF position for the Rockets to succeed.

So, if the Rockets succeed with Juwan playing, you are simply wrong, again !

DD

 

Broken record.

Shooting 44% is bad for a PF, especially one who gets open shots all day. (Hell at least Walker's low % comes with the benefit of being able to hit some 3's, with a higher eFG% - of course that's why he was Haslem's backup and not vice versa).

Getting 6 rebounds in 35 minutes is not just bad, it's terrible for a PF.

So if you're saying he shoots bad, and rebounds terribly, for 30+ minutes/game (which is what it takes him to attain those #'s) things will be great?

Doubtful.