Of course its anecdotal... its not like you can do a scientific study in this situation and hide the identity of the player from the refs and see how they call the fouls. However, if you follow basketball and watch games, you would see that Yao gets screwed by the refs.
Uh, per my stats, Jeff Foster and Yao are BOTH among the top players in the league at drawing fouls - and furthermore, the difference between the two is all of 0.4%. Not 4%, but .004 - with a small sample size for Foster which may make his statistic less meaningful than it actually is. From that you're trying to transpose the idiotic argument that Jeff Foster is "more gifted, demands more defensive attention" in order to make it look weaker. Nobody is making that argument at all - although a frequent tactic of Yao fans is to grab onto a statistical outlier and pronounce all evidence invalid. It's happened before, and it will keep on happening. But anyway, Let's dismiss all that and answer your question, using YOUR assumption: 54% of Yao's shots are inside, 46% are outside jumpers. http://www.82games.com/04HOU22A.HTM 72% of Foster's shots are inside, and only 28% are outside jumpers. http://www.82games.com/04IND17A.HTM Now, Let's assume that players shooting inside are more likely to be fouled than players who play on the perimeter: As you can since nearly 3/4 of Foster's shots are inside, whereas just over 1/2 of Yao's shots are inside - and the differnce in drawing fouls between the tow is only .004: the numbers show that FOSTER is the one who is not going to the line enough. A guy who shoots a lot more inside than Yao - all things being equal - should, by conventional wisdom and YOUR assumption, go to the line a LOT more than Yao. But he's not, in fact, they're in a virtual dead heat. If I am a Pacers fan, I would be livid about this and accuse the league of protecting Yao. Just like Yao fans go nuts and claim tha Yao is singled out all the time. So, MFW if that is you "picking my argument apart", I suggest you keep trying as you seem to only be weakening your case and strengthening mine. Thanks though. Friend, I brought in the ESPN stats because YOU were b****ing that they didn't tell the story of what happened with regard to fouls called on Yao. Now you are b****ing me out they don't incorporate how many times he was fouled? You can't have it both ways - According to both fouls drawn and fouls called, - there is little to no evidence that Yao is unneccessarily singled out as the recipient of a disproportionate number of fouls or is not drawing enough whistles in return. Is this evidence perfect? No. But is it the best we have? Yes. Do non-calls happen to every player in the league? Yes. Does every team/player/fan feel as if they are treated worse than anybody else? Yes. No, you just tripped yourself up. You "routinely" watch Yao games. You do not "routinely" watch Heat games or Cavs games or Spurs games, so you can't make that kind of generalization that he's treated differently based on having watched them. I can tell that you don't "routinely" watch Heat/Laker games because Shaq has frequently been called for the shoulder charge over the course of his career. I have seen it happen. I have also seen him get away with it on many occasions. He is the poster boy for inconsistent refereeing. Why do you think Phil Jackson seemingly spent half his time working the refereees in press conferences each post season? Do you remember when Shaq got suspended last year for saying this on live TV?: "My message to David Stern is get some people in here that understand the game and don't try to take over the game because people pay good money to see good athletes play. And don't try to take over the f-cking game." Do you think Shaq wasn't really mad or didn't actually mean this? Of course he did. It is very frustrating for Shaq. Some nights he can bull people over, some nights he can't. Some nights people will hang all over him, and he gets sent to the showers for breating on people. Look at LeBron. Do you think LeBron or a die hard Cavs/LOF could not make the exact same statement that you made above (not shaq's) in good faith? (though it must noted that LeBron's problem is more likely drawing fouls than picking them up as he is a good deal more coordinated than Yao (and 99.9999999999% of the rest of the planet) and does not play inside). Of course they could. They watch all the Cavs games, they can probably list instances where LeBron drives the lane and gets hacked for no call for each and every one. The fact remains: Yao is naturally an awkward guy who has a tendency to commit silly fouls. Should some of those not be called? Yes. Does the perception of his being awkward hurt him in this department? Probably. But does it rise to the level of leaguewide conspiracy that many suggest? It doesn't appear so from the available evidence. If Yao were to "call out the officials" like this thread title suggests, would it make a damn bit a diference? No, he'd just be one of 100's of NBA players, coaches, owners, who before him have done the same - each with some degree of justification - and always will do the same, it's the nature of a complex system.
As I've said, you turned another stat, interpreted it wrong, and tried to pass it up as argument. Yet somehow you are here interpreting other people's argument as idiotic. And of course, you took a perfectly fine argument (being that Yao is fouled more often than Foster because he's more gifted) and somehow tried to turn it into an YOF argument, with no relevancy what-so-ever. Suppose you have a perfect world where every foul is called and called right, who would get more calls? Yao. Why? Because he's the better player. Defence focus on him more, they have to foul more to stop him, a little push here, a little shove there. I had no interest proving Yao is this and that. All I did was proving that he is fouled more than Foster because he is more offensively gifted. But nooooooo, why take that perfectly fine argument when you can twist it around. There are many reasons why Foster shoots more from the inside than Yao, one of key ones being the defensive attention. You know, that thing? Getting an wide open dunk under the basket isn't the same as being doubled, getting pushed outside and hitting the bucket any ways. And that stat is only comparable if the defensive attention received by Yao and Foster are the same or at least remotely comparable, which they are not. And most importantly, you ignored my argument of ACTUALLY BEING FOULED. In many cases, Yao shooting from the outside is because he was pushed with both arms, a foul that WASN'T called, which by itself is proff that Yao is getting the shaft. For all the irrelevant stats you tried to use to your advantage, you don't have one basic thing required to make an argument, being common sense. As for Phil Jackson b****ing about Shaq's calls, that's what makes him a whiney little b****. What is he complaining about? Shaq IS getting away with it at least half the time. So you say OK, what if Shaq doesn't get away with it the other half of the time? Well, so he gets the offensive, the defence DOESN'T have to hack him as a result and you have no point. And no, I don't routinely watch Heat games, but I ROUTINELY watched Fakers games. As for Lebron, there's the question of whether he INITIATED the contact. I really like how you are re-writing the rulebook. If Lebron (Kobe is the better example, I don't know what he's b****ing about) initiates contact on the defender, it's an offensive. He's lucky he's getting a non-call. Driving inside by itself doesn't guarantee he's being shafted. There's also the part about actually being fouled, which was the argument that you conveniently ignored.
No. It's not his style. In fact it would do him some good to probably kiss ass, that way at least he comes off as being sincere.
I didn't twist a single thing around. The only I destroyed was any shred of your contention, based on the numbers, that Foster is somehow representative of Yao being mistreated - when in fact he shows the exact opposite. YOUR words, MFW, YOUR exact words: I explained precisely why he goes to the line more - because guys who play more inside (like Foster vis-a-vis Yao) tend to go to the line more - which fits exactly with YOUR suggestion that big men are fouled more than perimteter players: You asked a question, I answered the question in a more than satisfactory fashion according to the parameters YOU set. So if Foster being ahead of Yao was in any way a component of your argument based on the data set - that part of your argument has been rendered invalid Show me one - ONE relevant stat that you have provided. You have already said that you don't watch every single other game, or even a substantial proportion thereof, so you can't be making any generalizations based on what you have seen. Do you have any grounds to make a statement, that, on a relative level, Yao is treated worse than players? I don't see any statistics on your end, I don't see anything at all other than the standard sports fan "worst officiating evar1!!!!1111" song and dance. I don't know how many years you have followed sports - but news flash - you're not the first to ever say this. "becuase he's a b****"? LOL, that's a great comeback. Thanks MFW, I'll have to remember that one. But you're saying bad calls on Shaq all balance out? Huh? I don't even understand what you are saying in this instance so you'll need to clarify - and again I doubt you have the basis to make it. How routinely? League Pass, Season tickets? Or just whenever they happened to be on TV? I know which one I'm guessing. I'm guessing you don't routinely watch Cavs games either. But anyway, who said what about the rulebook? Have I not conceded in this thread MANY MANY TIMES that NBA officials blow calls on Yao (and LeBron, Shaq, etc?) For the millionth time, that is not the issue.
You know Sam, your BS is getting deep. Up to now I assumed you just know jack about interpreting stats, but now I know you are just twisting it. Hmmmmm, let's see... FACT: Last time I checked, Yao scores 18.5 PPG, 54% of that means 10 (9.99) points in the paint, on average, EACH GAME. Last time I checked, Jeff Foster scored an outstanding 8.7 PPG, 72% of that means a grandious 6 (6.2264) points in the paint, on average, EACH GAME. Yet he draws more fouls per game than Yao. And that's not counting the double teams Yao faces or the his impact on the defensive end. You wanted FACTS, I give you FACTS. So go ahead, pull something out of your ass and tell me how Foster goes inside more than Yao. If anything, using Jeff freakin' Foster of all people, hurts your argument, not help it because it shows even in a greater light that Yao's getting screwed. Not that you had an argument to start... And Shaq. Let's see: he bulls into people, knock him over and scores points. If the refs call him for the offensive, he doesn't lose anything. Why? Because it IS a freakin' offensive foul. He's getting away with it more than half the time (and that's an underestimate). And when he gets away with it, not only does he score, if the other team fouls, they could have players in foul trouble. It means the other team is hit with a double whammy: foul trouble or let him score. But they can't let him score because then he'll do it all night long. Yet, some little twerp, such as Phil Jackson, the Faker fans (and you) have the balls to whine a b**** about an offensive foul in which he is getting away with more than half the time while the other team gets screwed. You get some you give some. Shaq gets away with offensive fouls, the defenders get away with hacking him SOME of the time. Take into factor the star calls, Shaq's net benefit is slightly above zero. When's the last time you see Yao get a star call. He gets jack either side of the court. If he actually gets away with a little something here and there then maybe Rockets fans wouldn't be b****ing. It actually makes a huge difference.
I think that JVG's recent solution will work out well, to just leave Yao in, and let him foul out if he has to, and then the negative backlash to that will cause them to quit calling him so badly. If it becomes obvious that the refs are determining the outcome of the game, they'll quit it. As long as the coaches keep pulling him out after ticky-tack fouls, they'll keep calling him tight. I wish they had tried this strategy a long time ago. I think its part of Yao's confidence and better play the last couple games.
Wow, MFW, apparently I missed your response a few weeks ago. Apparently you don't understand the difference between "total" and "per shot" YOFism is a deadly disease, treat it early! It affects both judgment and basic math skills!
You know Sam, the sad thing is that you think my life evolves around the internet. I think you'd notice that I haven't visited the BBS for several days. And yes, it was several days, not weeks, which at my calculation would involve at least 14 days, if you call 2 weeks "several weeks. So I find it hilarious that you are lecturing me about math skills. And yes, please do tell me the difference between total and per shot. I'm sure that Jeff Foster shoots every .72xx of a shot from inside. Furthermore, I'd actually like to see somewhere on that 82games link where it differentiated between total and per shot. What's more pathetic is that after you got owned all you can pull out is YOFism. Shows how much of an argument you had to start with. YOFism is a disease, I agree whole-heartedly. But if given the choices I think I'd rather have that instead of your stupidity.
Actually, to be factual, you should base it on FGA/FTA ratio, and not PPG. Yao has 755 FGA, based on 54%, is 408 FGA inside. Based on his 363 FTA, his ratio is .88 FTA for every inside FGA. (Shaq's ratio is .92 just for comparison) Foster has 256 FGA, based on 72%, IS 184 FGA inside. Based on his 122 FTA, his ratio is .67 FTA for every inside FGA. Factor in Foster's knack for pulling down almost 2 more offensive rebounds a game more than Yao, despite about 4-5 less minutes and Sam's argument that Foster *may* be the one who is getting screwed more than Yao is not without merit.
I'm well aware of that. But the only way we can actually tell who shot more from the inside is by looking at their shot charts, which none of us can provide. There is also the inherent flaw in using FGA/FTA ratio. What if a guy gets fouled with no free throws? Hypothetically suppose player A and player B both gets fouled the same number of times and shoots the same, but player A does it in continuation every time while player B doesn't get it off. Then A would have a higher FGA/FTA ratio. Also, a guy like Yao, who is option 1 or 2 on offence and hence gets the ball more and is the focus of defence is more likely to get fouled. But as I've said, without a shot chart we really can't know and are simply arguing about semantics. So you are right, Jeff Foster *MAY* be playing inside. We can't be sure. But we ARE sure he's drawing more fouls than Yao.
Or look at the 82game that Sam cited. It breaks down the FGA of each player, with regards to inside or outside. Thats totally subjective though and I would think if you want to factor that in, then break down every one of Yao and Foster's inside touches and fouls on those touches. If you can't, then it proves nothing with regards to Yao receiving more unfair treatment than other inside players. If you insist on using that as a factor, then look at Shaq's ratio. His is in line with Yao. There is no way you can say that Yao gets fouled more in non shooting situations than Shaq does. In fact, I would think that edge goes to Shaq since he gets more touches in a game (i.e. he probably gets fouled more, in a game, before the shot than Yao does, which would only boost his FGA inside/FTA ratio given penalty situations and "hack a Shaq"). Which is why I cited a ratio, instead of total attempts. If Foster were to be an offensive focus and take the same amount of FGAs as Yao, that ratio still says he would go to the line less than Yao does. An inside shot is an inside shot. I don't think a defender fouls on an inside shot differently from player to player, do you? We don't need a shot chart. 82games.com provides the breakdown for us. Well, he IS playing inside going by the 82games.com stats and the offensive rebounding stats. So we can be sure about that. And he's not drawing more fouls than Yao is, he's drawing less based on the ratio I cited. The point Sam was making is, Yao is not really getting "screwed" more than many other superstar in the NBA are on a nightly basis.
"WHY, IT'S NOT SO HARD... JUST SCREAM AT THE REFS... THEY NEVER GAVE ME A TECHNICAL FOR YELLING AT THEM... OH, WELL, SEE YOU LATER, GUYS, I GOTTA GO GAMBLE..." Sincerely,
Perhaps I should be lecturing you about your reading comprehension skills also, since you'll note the post you quoted says "few weeks" not "several weeks". (although to be fair, I probably should have said "couple" and not "few", for whatever reason I use couple with 2 and few with 3, generally). Anyway, you got any more evidence for me? Since all that you can cite is anectdotal evidence, all I saw yesterday, after getting a phantom T, was Yao reaching in on Bibby after a screen, then running up and coming over Skinner's back and hacking him on the rebound yesteday - which resulted in a foul on Skinner. I also saw him go down like a sack of potatoes after Peja gave him a little shoulder nudge on a drive yesterday for a foul on Peja. Let's not even mention the shoulder he drove into Fortson (and the subsequent Fortson Flop) from the end of the Sonics game. Let's just pretend like he never gets a call though, and act like it is 'the w0rst 0ff1c18t1ng 3var!!111!!!111!!" everytime your fave touches the ball. Let's ignore that others can make this claim with as much or more justification and just repeat it into an echo chamber again because the truth has been revealed to us. EDIT: BREAKING NEWS! In a shocking twist, Kings fans are ranting about Ron Garretson too! http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4038 They're obviously delusional, only the Rockets and Yao get screwed.
The exact same thing was called the other way on National TV yesterday. I think Yao and the Rockets are starting to get some well-deserved respsect, and along with that will come more balanced treatment by the refs. JVG's recent statement in the media that he was just going to let Yao play and foul out if necessary probably also made a bit of a statement.
Well guess what Sam, show me a Rockets poster that was b****ing about Yao getting screwed last game. You have a 13 page game thread to work with. Last time I checked the only complaint in the last game was how we were giving up way too many offensive boards and letting the Kings come back. He actually got some calls last game (and arguably the one before that as well), a fraction of which were simply the right calls that we don't come to expect any more, which is why we didn't b**** about it. I hope the reffing keeps up this way, but I'd give it at least a handful of games before I call it either way.
Sorry to break it to ya, but the 82games stat DOESN'T show who goes inside more. It shows who shoots inside more. Suppose Yao starts off in the post and gets pushed out (or doesn't get the ball), his FGA inside the post doesn't go up. Like I said, there ISN'T a single stat that tells you who is inside more. Not to mention I would also like see 82games' definition of inside. Let's suppose the cutoff is say... 5 feet. OK, so what separates 5 feet and 5 and 1/2 feet? But according to stats, one would be inside and one would not. Of course any of us would no that there is no appreciable difference between the two, but you can't tell that by looking at stats. You can only tell that by looking at shot charts, which shows the red blobs at approximately the same spot. And the use of FGA/FTA ratio is irrelevant in this argument. You say OK, Foster maintains a ratio lower than Yao taking like 7 shots a game and not as an option and superimpose that on if he took just under 13 shots just like Yao and as an option. Well guess, what, he would only be screwed if his ratio STAYS THAT LOW despite the change. And up to this point we can't say one way or another. Likewise, if Yao only takes 7 shots, you can only argue he's getting more favourable calls if his ratio stays that high. The Shaq issue I have already addressed. I don't assume that Yao gets fouled more on each shot attempt, but as I've said, refs let Shaq get away with offensive fouls, so they give defenders some leeway as well. Otherwise they'll just be screwing the other team. At this point I would gladly take fewer FTs from Yao if he gets away with some little things here and there.
Of course Rockets fans aren't b****ing about it, he got all the calls yesterday - also he stopped committing as many stupid fouls. You do know that you take credit away from Yao when you claim it is always the officials right? Give him some credit for improving his play. Anyway - what a revolutionary idea that players are subjected to inconsistent officiating that has both benefits and drawbacks. Wow, who would ever urge such an evenhanded theory? I thought leaguewide conspiracies were the flavor of the month. Oh, and 82 games punked you pretty good, I don't know why you're even bothering to argue that it doesn't say what it says it does - especially when you don't have any countering information whatsoever. Every available stat measure (rebound rate, shot selection, /48 minute stats) indicates that Foster spends a lot more of his time banging than Yao - just admit that you were wrong on that one and stop chopping off your own limbs.
why are you dissin' MJ with all that sarcasm, hell, if he had been in the 93-95 seasons Houston wouldn't have won those two championships, so in a way, you owe him some gratitude...
