sorry, man - comparing plummer to cutler and leaving out their 52 teammates is not quantitative or logical. it's lazy and meaningless - ESPECIALLY if the only metric you're going to use is W/L. well, it proves you were wrong a post ago when you said, "Again, the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough because this is the point you are overlooking/exaggerating the most." but yeah - other than that... (and btw, yes - that was fun) but it's not a disservice to jay cutler?.... and please - post one account that states matt cassel is every bit as good as jay cutler. i can't believe i'm having to ask this but are you sure you understand the concept of a rumor? because you keep applying it to this situation... AND THERE'S NO RUMOR! josh mcdaniels not only admitted he engaged in trade talks with several teams - he explicitly stated that he would have MADE the trade had the timing been better. THAT IS NOT A RUMOR! they wanted to and tried to trade jay cutler. that is irrefutable. andnotamotherflippinrumor. why would i spare you that when you keep telling me it's "a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office"? argh! if "it happened" it is not a "rumor." it was intended to be "peyton manning" - ya know, more representative of the league's better QBs. it wasn't specifically *peyton manning*. what constitutes "routine trade talks" in your world? do you think nfls GMs treat it like the world's greatest fantasy league? there's a difference between asking about availability and/or spitballing ideas and putting offers on the table that you later deem failed only because your were late to the dance. i don't know, man - someone once told me "the situation you speak of is a common occurrence in the world of sports. Another day at the office. This cannot be stressed enough"..... i said he was justified in being pissed off - how is that an "atomic bomb"? relax, dude - i was trying to stay in the admittedly hokey (though not entirely inappropriate) analogy. i don't think anyone's actually been scorned. but let me ask you something - you duck and dodge a point i've made repeatedly: why are you letting josh mcdaniels off the hook? do you think trying to trade your brand new franchise QB before you've even practiced together is an acceptable way to build a relationship? that's what's unfathomable to me. i can see the "cutler is acting like a diva" angle - though i disagree with it. but even if you took the anti-cutler stance as far as you have - i can't imagine handing mcdaniels a pass. at the VERY least, it was dumb to think engaging in trade talks involving your 25-year pro bowl QB wouldn't leak and cause a problem. at worst, it may end up being career suicide. as bad as they were, the cardinal defense still finished 10 spots ahead of the denver broncos' defense last year. TEN! we're not talking about a slightly-below average defense here, baller - it was a TERRIBLE defense. sure; there're always exceptions. but i think hanging 2008 on cutler when he had an absolutely terrible defense and the least threatening running game the team has fielded in a very long time is just... it's unfathomable to me. did he play poorly down the stretch? sure. but are they even in a position to blow the division if he's not carrying the team earlier in the year?... i mean... you're an obviously smart guy - come on, man.... let me stop you right there: really?.... this is what we're doing now? i've stated jay cutler is blame free in any situation? ... do you realize that in the specific quote you're responding to here, i stated, "i’ve never absolved jay cutler"?... ... ... further, do you realize you just awarded me the mother of all hyperbole? pop quiz time, baller... QUESTION #1: at 2:03pm today, who said the following?: you’re right, cutler hasn’t set the world on fire in december (he was well below average in their final three losses last year – but the defense also gave up 30, 30 and 52 points in those games) – but, in my defense: i’ve never argued he’s bart starr. a. me b. me c. i don't know; maybe i should i stop calling out other posters' reading comprehension d. all of the above QUESTION #2: at 4:24pm today, who said the following?: you’re arguing with yourself; i never hailed cutler or defended his performance in those games. a. me b. me c. i don't know; maybe i should i stop calling out other posters' reading comprehension d. all of the above i would hope so....
Wow, this thread is still going? I wouldn't want to give anything up for Cutler. I still believe in Schaub. Dud better come through, I have a Texans shirt with his name on it!
. . . as long as he does not wear #8 . . . SIGN HIM UP! On the real . . he would definately be an Upgrade at the QB position and a might less tread on the tires Rocket River
For FUN, contract comparison on this hypothetical not gonna happen situation Schaub six-year, $48 million contract $7 million in guarantees Texans are "only" obligated to pay Schaub a total of $19.95 million through next season if they choose not to exercise the OPTION to extend Schaub's contract three more years from 2010-'12. Cutler six year, $47.86 million contract $11 million of that is guaranteed and 45 percent of the value is in performance incentives. To me a tiny part of Cutler's frustration is potentially losing out on the incentives from not being "the guy". If it were me, I'd probably be fussy and risk tarnishing my good image, too. They have the same 6 year $48 mil MAX amount. Cutler gets $11 mil guaranteed, Shaub $7 mil. Dont know if they've already gotten their guaranteed money. These contracts in general tend to be full of fluff, so its hard to tell their base rates and who's cheaper. Looks to be Cutler if his contract indeed is incentives he probably wont earn.
Did you even read this part? Cutler's deal IS cheaper. CUTLER DEAL FULL OF FLUFF A league source who has eyeballed the relevant provisions of the contract signed by Broncos quarterback Jay Cutler, the eleventh overall pick in the 2006 draft, has opined that the reported maximum value of $48 million over six years is an exaggeration, and that the true maximum value of the deal is $38 million. You're really off to a bad start here dude.
Not to mention the fact it's largely a lateral talent move. Something only fanboys would argue about to begin with. Cutler is not an upgrade to Schaub. Period. At least, in my opinion, in a SIGNIFICANT sense. He might save 10 million? Who cares? To me, that is NOT significant money. 10 million dollars spent on another player does not make the Texans a Super Bowl Champ. I wonder if all the "Sage should be our QB" crybabies have finally shut up on the Texans message board. I'll go read over there sometime when I can stand it again. On the Rockets board, the 2nd coming is Cutler. I'll go see who it is with the Texans fanboys and compare the differences. I'm betting neither board knows what the hell they're talking about. At least we have determined in this thread that leadership qualities are not important out of a QB. Thank you Ric. Insight like that cannot be bought.
Seriously. Just send an email to Ryan17Wagner and go start up a new message board for the two of you and those like you. I'm sure it will have a devout following.
Cutler is an upgrade to Schaub on several levels. You're just ignoring it all. You lambasted a poster for correctly pointing out that Cutler was cheaper and now all of a sudden you don't care? Make up your mind. I would venture to say most GM's in a salary cap league would consider a $10 million savings to be pretty SIGNIFICANT. If you want to rip Ric, rip him for defending the Texans decision to take Chester Pitts over Clinton Portis way back when because he's right about Cutler and time will bear him out.
No, I just don't agree. My mind is made up and continues to be unchanged. I don't consider him to be significantly cheaper. Certainly not to the degree it warrants this trade. I'd agree with that too. However, on the Texans, in the context of this being a Super Bowl Champion team, it's NOT significant. Actually, while that does sound appealing. I happen to agree with Pitts over Portis. Fact is, as I recall (and I may be wrong) but we thought we could get Jonathan Wells in a lower round. He was seen by many on this side to be at least as serviceable as Portis (at the time and in our scheme of things). I might be wrong but I recall wondering what the hell was going on when we took Fred Weary ahead of Wells. I was thinking we were getting too far down in the draft not to take a RB, especially since we had already lost the shot at Portis and we had already drafted Pitts. I dunno, I just remember the o-line being something more to worry about than our RB situation. Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on things, 99.9% of us would draft Portis instead of Pitts.
Well, thanks for acknowledging the fact that I actually have been comparing Plummer to Cutler all along. So much for your Terry Bradshaw/Joe Montana exaggerations making any sense. Not that I needed confirmation of that though. By fun, do you mean you entertaining me with yet another meaningless copout? This is precisely what you just did here. I want you to explain to me what using this precedent talk proves. Does it magically make this situation make sense? Does it make it all just go away? No, of course it doesn’t. There isn’t much of a precedent for this particular type of situation, however Cassel absolutely is on Cutler’s level in terms of trade value –AND- consequently, this is a “typical trade scenario” regardless of which position we’re discussing. “Typical” meaning equal value, equal talent which is the basis for ANY trade talk regardless of the circumstances. That is the basis for any trade talks, is it not? If it’s on the table it’s a deal both sides will consider! Applying this precedent logic becomes irrelevant. Let’s pretend for a second an NBA GM floated around the idea of trading Dwayne Wade for Kobe Bryant. Is there much of a precedent for that caliber of a move? No. Is there equal value present thus making it worthy of consideration? Absolutely! Stating that a move like that almost never happens, and using that as the basis for any half-assed argument against it, really proves nothing when the dust settles. Well, we could start with the opinion of Josh McDaniels: winner of three Super Bowls. Or we could continue with Pat Bowlen: owner presiding over a team that won two Super Bowls. Either way I’m sure their ability to judge talent is nowhere near as good as your’s. Please don’t insult everybody's intelligence by acting like Cassel isn’t in Cutler’s league. Don’t allow yourself to look that biased, stubborn and naïve. I realize your opinion of Cutler is pretty high but to scoff at Cassel like this is simply not fair or accurate. Rumor = speculation, an idea, whispers, whatever. More likely than not these instances never materialize which is precisely the case in this matter. At the end of the day that’s all this comes down to whether you’ll admit that or not. I provided you with three examples of scenarios that are much more substantive than this whole Cassel/Cutler thing which you continue to blow out of proportion in terms of what actually happened and what it means. It’s been confirmed TAMPA BAY initiated these trade talks: If you’re Denver, with a new head coach with a strong history with Cassel, really…you tell me what the harm is in listening especially if you’re not even the team initiating these trade talks in the first place. This is an important point since any GM would be unwise to simply not answer a phone call because the caller is presumably phoning to inquire about a player perceived to be untouchable. On what planet would it be wise to not consider your options? Unfortunately for Denver’s case, you don’t really count on these type of proposals getting leaked. You even acknowledged yourself that a great deal of trade discussions and roster ideas never get leaked to the media. Is Denver simply supposed to ignore a phone call on the off-chance their discussion might get leaked –AND- their franchise QB will overreact to this magnitude? C’mon now….I know you’re a smart guy but let’s wake up here. I noticed you backed off whenever you challenged me to name you a list of $10M All-Star level players discussed in trade talks. Not that Cutler even makes $10M anyways, still it’s funny that this practice seems to be a lot more common than you realized. Yeah, you’re welcome. “It happened” clearly meaning the trade discussions which [unfortunately for Denver’s sake] were leaked. Again…yet another cheap, lazy statement that proves nothing. So Cutler is on Peyton Manning’s level? That’s your stance? Again, instead of trying to spin whatever I say to create copout #212 of this thread, perhaps you should read the entire message and consider the context? Do I need to break this down for you? You have to disregard this whole “precedence” notion. If trade talks take place involving equal talent, equal value and makes sense for both teams it’s going to be considered no matter what the circumstance. Matt Cassel’s and Jay Cutler’s generally aren’t traded each offseason – okay, we’ve established that. That doesn’t mean a situation couldn’t arise where it makes sense for both parties to consider doing so, does it? It just so happens that this one of those rare offseasons where that talk was apparently considered feasible. Applying this precedence and conventional wisdom crap doesn’t help this make any more sense. If the Patriots discussed trading Brady for Peyton Manning, how would this move be perceived? Odd? Yes. Stupid? Debatable. Worth considering due to the sheer fact that we’re talking two near equal players, with equal value and a move that could work for both sides? Abso-freaking-lutely. Enter: this Cassel/Cutler drama-fest. Same point, different circumstances. The fact that this type of proposed move is unusual or rare doesn’t make it any less legitimate if both sides did, indeed, decide to execute the deal. LOL – You’re the one comparing this scenario to a man cheating on his wife, to a scornful attempt to RID yourself of somebody, and that nonsense. In other words: overreacting. The Tyson Chandler rescinded trade was 10x more substantive than this isolated Cassel/Cutler incident ever was yet with your reasoning you would seemingly imply these two cases are on the same level. They are clearly not. [Note: Here is where you chime in sniping on my usage of the word “incident” then ask some half-assed “But I thought you said it was only a rumor and not an incident?” question.] I have said repeatedly that McDaniels was in the wrong for denying these reports once they first leaked. That’s not letting him off the hook and suggesting that I did so is not accurate. As for the relationship building aspect, it’s March. If you’re going to make a ball-sy move like that this is the time to do it before the mandatory workouts and what not start. If a Cutler/Cassell type trade was bound to happen, if you were Cutler would you rather see it happen the first week of a March when you’re vacationing or laying on a couch at home in Tennessee or rather in April or May when you’re practicing/seeing your teammates all the time? You be the judge of that. You can criticize McDaniels’ reasoning all you want. As I have stated before, your adamant dismissal of this idea is a tremendous insult to Cassel. Keep throwing these cheap “25-year Pro Bowl QB” blurbs out there – Cassel is 26-years-old, put up Pro Bowl caliber numbers and is fresh off of a season where he successfully stepped in for the best player in the football and performed admirably. Feel free to keep pretending like Cassel isn’t on Cutler’s level though. I think I said it better: The fact of the matter is the Broncos were in position to make the playoffs the past two years before they wilted tremendously down the stretch of the season. Again, NO that’s not entirely on Cutler but he played poorly and this is football – a brutally, unfair business where the success and failure of a team starts and ends with the QB. Could the defense have played better? Absolutely. Does a QB deserve blame if the defense is inadequate? No. Does a defense deserve blame if a QB plays poorly? Usually not – circumstances play a lot into and if you’re playing from behind it makes your playcalling very predictable. Only, I watched those games down the stretch. Cutler played like the crap, had a QB rating in the low 70’s. You can call me lazy, ill-informed or whatever all you want. I watched those games and know what I saw. That team gagged and Cutler was unimpressive. At least we can agree on something: BAD defense and Cutler played poorly down the stretch. You have yet to directly assess blame to Cutler for anything outside of his poor play on the field. ANYTHING! And you have the nerve to accuse me of ducking and dodging something. Yes, you won the Hyperbole Award with flying colors. Look, this is getting tedious. This has gone way beyond an intelligent sports conversation and developed more into a copout/diversion/spinning contest that, quite frankly, is becoming pretty boring and repetitive. I understand your points and I definitely respect your opinion, I just think we’re so far off on different sides of the fence that we’re never going to reach a common ground here. Consequently, I’m done doing the respond-to-every-sentence thing. You can feel free to grill me as bad as you want but I’m only going to directly respond if we’re done playing this word-spinning-game and if it’s a point we haven’t already beaten to death 30 times already.
Plutoblue11, I’m not ignoring Cutler’s talent and I’m not trying to turn this into a ‘Plummer Pride Parade’. I’ve made my points that I think: 1) Cutler is overrated, mistake-prone and unreliable from Weeks 12-17, 2) Cutler has wanted out of Denver for quite some time dating back to the Shanahan firing and is fully prepared to use this trade scenario to any lengths necessary, 3) He’s power-hungry and upset his status as a franchise QB doesn’t involve any say or pull within the front office and 4) Even though nobody points it out Plummer has been a more successful QB than Cutler. The last point I only brought out to mock Ric’s whole empathy approach in defending Cutler’s childish response to this whole debacle. How it’s so ironically hilarious that after being a successful starter with the Broncos, they [wisely] drafted Cutler to wait in the wings and just assumed since Plummer is a mature, professional athlete that he would embrace the move [which he did]. Plummer set a great example by not acting like a diva in a similar role-questioning scenario and Cutler hasn’t. That’s the point. Ric is right that it’s unfair to level ALL criticism at Cutler for the Broncos’ annual demise. I do, however, think it’s only fair to point out Cutler’s less-than-stellar play down the stretch while the team is in position to secure a playoff spot. Sure, the defense playing AWFUL last year was a much bigger problem than Cutler’s low-70’s QB-ratings but it’s only fair to point that out too. It’s simply unfair to assess blame otherwise. I do not, for one second, believe Plummer is a better QB or player than Cutler. Again, I just think it’s funny when you consider how arrogantly Cutler portrays himself that he hasn’t even bested his predecessor yet in the W/L column. Of course, if you replaced Plummer with Cutler on those balanced, playoff Broncos teams I have no doubt they would be just as good, and likely better. Still….we’ll never know and if a team like the Lions makes a play for Cutler on draft day and he wins 15 games over the next 3-4 years it’s going to be hard to know just how good Cutler REALLY is. The sporting world only has a small tolerance for the [pre-Boston] Kevin Garnett’s of the world that are routinely considered to be one of the finest talents/players players in the game that never seem to be on a good enough teams. That act gets old after a while. What I don’t get is if Cutler is as focused on winning and being a Bronco like he initially claimed, he should just suck it up and prove them wrong for even considering this deal in the first place. Of course, that involves placing the ego aside and moving forward. Something Cutler doesn’t appear to be prepared to do as long as he’s still a Bronco.
????????????????? i don't believe i've ever done this, other than, perhaps, speaking generically to the benefits of building around OL rather than RBs, especially when you're an expansion team. but other than that............. i'm at a loss???? help me out.
