Does anyone know if we were torturing the Nazis and Japanese on such a scale? If so, I haven't heard anything about it. If not, why do you think that we have regressed 60 years later?
sorry, basso, but for a moment of levity: did you see Pottery Barn's official response to Powell's analogy? It was pretty funny. They said this rhetoric greatly misrepresents them and their dedication to customer satisfaction. They claim that if you break something in one of their showrooms that you do not in fact have to own it.
The UN is utterly powerless to do anything in Iraq. When their headquarters was bombed, they ran away like cowards to Crete. They passed resolution after resolution about Iraq and held them accountable for...... none of them. They were willing, corrupt participants in the food for oil program that bribed several nations into throwing a monkeywrench into our efforts to involve the precious "international" community. Screw the UN. They are a waste of prime Manhattan real estate and a ridiculous anachronism in a chaotic international system where the use of power rules everything. I think old Buford T. Justice, the grammatically challenged sherriff from Smokey and the Bandit put it best about the UN:
Basso...I would agree if the only important position here was the responsibility that the breaker has to fix his mistake. But in this case their is another apspect, and the 'broken pottery' is analogous to human beings...who don't want us there, and may be being broken furhter by our clumsy attempts to fix our previous mistakes.
Wow! The whole Yosemite Slammer thing was pretty amusing, but I do believe we've stumbled across a new caricature vehicle for this clown: Buford T. Slammer! Best thing is, he made it up hisself!
and guess what: they STILL have more credibility with Iraqis, arabs, and most of the rest of the world, than we do and ever will in the near future.
first, i disagree with your characterization of the invasion ("breaking") as a mistake, and i don't think that's what powell meant. he meant if you dismantle the existing power structure, corrupt though it was, you have a responibility to put something better in its place. we're not there yet, and it's incumbent upon us to get there, both for the sake of the iraqi people and the future chances of democracy in the middle east, and for our own security. second, your posts imply that iraq was stable before we "broke" it. it wasn't. violence may not have been as obvious to the outside world, save the governments of the UK and US, but it was still a brutal, viscious, genocidal regime that for most iraqis was far worse than what is happening now.
Recent gallup poll says the majority of Iraqis feel "less safe" now then they did before the invasion.
a majority also said they were better off w/o saddam. i'm not sure i'd put a whole lot of stock in polls conducted in iraq just yet.
Really? The polls seem to confirm the situation on the ground, where Iraqis seem to be voting with their feet, and their RPGS: Najaf
I see you stopped reading once you got your quote -- and missed the point entirely. Since I'm already posting and I'm curious: what do you really think I meant? Do you think I was suggesting we need to squash them like a cockroach TJ-style? Is that really what you got from that post, and from my rep in general?
well,..uhh mission accomplished was realized with the governmental overthrow phase of the War against terroristic Iraq...The second part of the dynamic transition phase has been not good, and I want the stability,...I want the freedom for the women...the people, and to incorporate a governmental process NOT fantasized with WMD, mass killing, raping, torturing, invading others openly celebrating terroristic deeds and other terroristic ilkings... and I think we have a governmental process that is not those things as above and thusly anti-havenistic to all and other forms of terroristic acts and cells...This should have been a process, because the transition does lead to the eventual handover as talked about this summer, but it hasn't...You have had three bastardistic groups that encourage terror and against cooperation....: 1. the thug/criminal, ignorant one 2. the feverent religious consumed one 3. the former regime supporter not dead yet one These groups are squeaking the wheels and it makes many falter with a stance...Whose at fault here? Us? Them?...actually it is no one's fault because all three groups are ignorant, stupid, and imo should be filled with holes...We seem to have made a lot strides against group #2 as of late and this is good...Now the strategic initiatives become separating the milder idiots and thugs from the severe ones,...and in a similar manner with group #3...You can say we are implementing tactical initatives with the process of doing this...The aim is the pacification and diplomatic offerings to those who can bend on complete uncooperation and ignorance...We do this and the casulty cost will be minimized,...and more cooperative Iraqis will step up...
I think if you ask most people, in the midst of a conflict, with shots and bombs going off all around them, or in the rebuilding stage after such a conflict, whether they are better off - you'll get an answer of 'no.' Totalitarian regimes have the distinct advantage of order. Add to this an 'occupying force' and i'm not surprised polls would not favour US occupation. I remember reading accounts after the fall of the Soviet Union, when it was in disorder, that quoted people who pined for life under communism, when at least you could line up for bread. For that reason I wouldn't put too much stock in ground polls in Iraq. It is currently chaos in Iraq. Our challenge is to tame that chaos without leaving something worse in its wake. Perhaps the UN isn't the ideal candidate to do this. However, it's clear the US will have great difficulty alone. They'll have to form some alliance with another nation, or nations, to establish credibility -- especially after recent events.
...er... We posses more WMD's than the rest of the planet. We have been reponsible for several mass killings, be they on a large scale ( millions of Natives) or lesser ( Hiroshima, Nagasaki, villages in Nam, etc.) Rape and torture...ummm... Invading others...triple ummm.... Nothing in our governmental system would seem to prevent these things you listed...
I know what you're saying, but there is an underlying difference between a chaos of your own choosing, under your own direction, and one at the behest of another power.
Just for grins, here's the full text of the Mission Accomplished speech. (Oh the irony)... _____________ Thank you. Thank you all very much. Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country. In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment, yet it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage, your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other made this day possible. Because of you our nation is more secure. Because of you the tyrant has fallen and Iraq is free. Operation Iraqi Freedom was carried out with a combination of precision and speed and boldness the enemy did not expect and the world had not seen before. From distant bases or ships at sea, we sent planes and missiles that could destroy an enemy division or strike a single bunker. Marines and soldiers charged to Baghdad across 350 miles of hostile ground in one of the swiftest advances of heavy arms in history. You have shown the world the skill and the might of the American armed forces. This nation thanks all of the members of our coalition who joined in a noble cause. We thank the armed forces of the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland who shared in the hardships of war. We thank all of the citizens of Iraq who welcomed our troops and joined in the liberation of their own country. And tonight, I have a special word for Secretary Rumsfeld, for General Franks and for all the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States: America is grateful for a job well done. The character of our military through history, the daring of Normandy, the fierce courage of Iwo Jima, the decency and idealism that turned enemies into allies is fully present in this generation. When Iraqi civilians looked into the faces of our service men and women, they saw strength and kindness and good will. When I look at the members of the United States military, I see the best of our country and I am honored to be your commander in chief. In the images of fallen statues we have witnessed the arrival of a new era. For a hundred of years of war, culminating in the nuclear age, military technology was designed and deployed to inflict casualties on an ever-growing scale. In defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, Allied forces destroyed entire cities, while enemy leaders who started the conflict were safe until the final days. Military power was used to end a regime by breaking a nation. Today we have the greater power to free a nation by breaking a dangerous and aggressive regime. With new tactics and precision weapons, we can achieve military objectives without directing violence against civilians. No device of man can remove the tragedy from war, yet it is a great advance when the guilty have far more to fear from war than the innocent. In the images of celebrating Iraqis we have also seen the ageless appeal of human freedom. Decades of lies and intimidation could not make the Iraqi people love their oppressors or desire their own enslavement. Men and women in every culture need liberty like they need food and water and air. Everywhere that freedom arrives, humanity rejoices and everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear. We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We're pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime who will be held to account for their crimes. We've begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons, and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We are helping to rebuild Iraq where the dictator built palaces for himself instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by and for the Iraqi people. The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done and then we will leave and we will leave behind a free Iraq. The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001 and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men, the shock troops of a hateful ideology, gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the beginning of the end of America. By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve and force our retreat from the world. They have failed. In the battle of Afghanistan, we destroyed the Taliban, many terrorists and the camps where they trained. We continue to help the Afghan people lay roads, restore hospitals and educate all of their children. Yet we also have dangerous work to complete. As I speak, a special operations task force lead by the 82nd Airborne is on the trail of the terrorists and those who seek to undermine the free government of Afghanistan. America and our coalition will finish what we have begun. From Pakistan to the Philippines to the Horn of Africa, we are hunting down Al Qaida killers. Nineteen months ago I pledged that the terrorists would not escape the patient justice of the United States. And as of tonight nearly one half of Al Qaida's senior operatives have been captured or killed. The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We have removed an ally of Al Qaida and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more. In these 19 months that changed the world, our actions have been focused and deliberate and proportionate to the offense. We have not forgotten the victims of September the 11th, the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States, and war is what they got. Our war against terror is proceeding according to the principles that I have made clear to all. Any person involved in committing or planning terrorist attacks against the American people becomes an enemy of this country and a target of American justice. Any person, organization or government that supports, protects or harbors terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent and equally guilty of terrorist crimes. Any outlaw regime that has ties to terrorist groups and seeks or possesses weapons of mass destruction is a grave danger to the civilized world and will be confronted. And anyone in the world, including the Arab world, who works and sacrifices for freedom has a loyal friend in the United States of America. Our commitment to liberty is America's tradition, declared at our founding, affirmed in Franklin Roosevelt's Four Freedoms, asserted in the Truman Doctrine and in Ronald Reagan's challenge to an evil empire. We are committed to freedom in Afghanistan, Iraq and in a peaceful Palestine. The advance of freedom is the surest strategy to undermine the appeal of terror in the world. Where freedom takes hold, hatred gives way to hope. When freedom takes hold, men and women turn to the peaceful pursuit of a better life. American values and American interests lead in the same direction. We stand for human liberty. The United States upholds these principles of security and freedom in many ways: with all of the tools of diplomacy, law enforcement, intelligence and finance. We are working with a broad coalition of nations that understand the threat and our shared responsibility to meet it. The use of force has been and remains our last resort. Yet all can know, friend and foe alike, that our nation has a mission: We will answer threats to our security, and we will defend the peace. Our mission continues. Al Qaida is wounded, not destroyed. The scattered cells of the terrorist network still operate in many nations and we know from daily intelligence that they continue to plot against free people. The proliferation of deadly weapons remains a serious danger. The enemies of freedom are not idle, and neither are we. Our government has taken unprecedented measures to defend the homeland and we will continue to hunt down the enemy before he can strike. The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide. No act of the terrorists will change our purpose, or weaken our resolve, or alter their fate. Their cause is lost; free nations will press on to victory. Other nations in history have fought in foreign lands and remained to occupy and exploit. Americans, following a battle, want nothing more than to return home. And that is your direction tonight. After service in the Afghan and Iraqi theaters of war, after 100,000 miles on the longest carrier deployment in recent history, you are homeward bound. Some of you will see new family members for the first time; 150 babies were born while their fathers were on the Lincoln. Your families are proud of you, and your nation will welcome you. We are mindful as well that some good men and women are not making the journey home. One of those who fell, Corporal Jason Mileo, spoke to his parents five days before his death. Jason's father said, "He called us from the center of Baghdad, not to brag but to tell us he loved us. Our son was a soldier." Every name, every life is a loss to our military, to our nation and to the loved ones who grieve. There is no homecoming for these families. Yet we pray in God's time their reunion will come. Those we lost were last seen on duty. Their final act on this Earth was to fight a great evil and bring liberty to others. All of you, all in this generation of our military, have taken up the highest calling of history: You were defending your country and protecting the innocent from harm. And wherever you go, you carry a message of hope, a message that is ancient and ever new. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "To the captives, come out; and to those in darkness, be free." Thank you for serving our country and our cause. May God bless you all. And may God continue to bless America.
MacBeth, is your solution, at this stage, to just leave and let them fight it out amongst themselves? Do you really believe the 'will of the people' will prevail (after all, who are WE to impose our will and values?). Sorry Floyd. I just don't buy that. Perhaps I'm just much more cynical than you are. I don't think it will be a fair fight. And I do think that we have a responsibility, having started this whole affair, to ensure a stable and reasonably just government emerges. To leave it to the one that has the most might in the region is too dangerous in my view.
