I'm not sure you guys are being realistic to talk about guys like Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay. When you compare what the Astros have to offer to what some of the other rumored teams have to offer, you quickly realize the Stros don't match up. And for as talented as Hunter Pence is, he doesn't do anything for the Jays who have big money in the outfield and need help at SS and pitching.
Yeah, they are trying to get max value by trading him early. The A's started the trend of trading early. I didn't even think about the fact that we will get compensation picks if he walks. Giving up Castro won't be a big deal if Towles numbers start translating to the majors, and depending on the package, Norris could easily be replaced by Jordan Lyles, Ross Seaton, Brad Dydalewicz, or possibly Robert Bono/Kyle Greenwalt.
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1013509/1/index.htm At 11:50 p.m. the phone rang in Hunsicker's house. "We have a deal," Woodward said. The Mariners agreed to take Carlos Guillen, a switch-hitting infielder with power; Freddy Garcia, a righthanded power pitcher; and a minor leaguer to be announced later. Garcia may be a dominant major league starter "in two to three years," Hunsicker says. I think you could offer something similar now if its done pretty close to the way the RJ deal is done.
Keep in mind that we'd have Halladay all of next year, as well. This gives our younger guys down in Lexington even more time to develop, gets us another draft under our belt, and hey, if we suck next year, we can deal Halladay to get some prospects in return (probably ones that aren't as well, but still...). That being said, I'd prefer not to touch Castro/Lyles/Seaton/Pence/Bourn.
Any package for Lee or Halladay will probably include Castro, Pence, Norris, and one of the A ball pitchers. If that is the case, its too much for a team struggling to rebuild the farm system to give up. I am all for going for it when you have the chance, but without minor league depth you really are asking for trouble by making a 4 for 1 trade. As I said in the cards/stros series thread, I think a pickup like Randy Wolf, from last year, is what the team needs. Roy and Wandy are 1A and 1B right now, the team needs a #3 which then moves Moehler into the #4 slot. #5 is then given to whoever deserves it between Hampton and Ortiz.
Who have we traded away that has really hurt us? Nobody has gone on to stardom in recent memory. Johan Santana was lost in a Rule V draft. Bobby Abreu was lost to the expansion draft. Taylor Bucholz, Willy Taveras, Luke Scott, Ben Zobrist, Matt Albers, Troy Patton & Buck are the best I can think of, and would any of them would be improvements on this team?
Zobrist absolutely would. But no one knew that, so I give them a pass on whatever the hell has gotten into him this year.
Houston would have to give up more than it did in the Randy Johnson deal, especially since Halladay has a team option at the end of the year, so there's no urgency for the Jays to trade him. Toronto would probably want a sure-fire position player (Bourn or Pence), two top flight pitching prospects a year or two away at most (Norris? Lo? maybe Lyles?) and a position prospect in a need area. I would imagine they would want Manzella or Castro in any deal. The real question is how much they covet Bud Norris. I'm sure they'd like Lyles or Seaton, but those guys are still a little unproven.
At least the 5th time i've repeated this, but nobody else on here, chron comments, or anywhere else seems to bring this up for fans to understand: if you trade for halladay, when he leaves the astros, he will either: 1) decline arbitration, in which case we will receive 2 compensatory high draft picks, or, 2) we will have re-traded him, yielding potentially better prospects than what we gave in the first place. and these are just the options if we don't extend him past next season. you people are flipping out about the idea of losing these prospects just because they are "ours". believe it or not, there are tons and tons of great prospects on farm clubs throughout the nation, who just may turn into better pros than our blue chippers! bottom line, if all it takes to get halladay is prospects from our farm, it's a no-brainer. i don't see how anybody could disagree with that. our time is now. the only thing that would be a loss is uncle Drayton's money (and if all goes as hoped, that wouldnt be a loss either). you people worried about depleting our minors and, as a result, damaging our future have probably been saying the same thing for years. Lo and behold, it's 2009, and even with having the worst farm system in the league, we are in the hunt at the Major League level, and that is all that matters, and all that will ever matter. I assume none of you are seriously concerned that the Express can't seem to contend in the Pacific Coast League, and that your Hooks haven't won the pennant in the Texas League since '06. as i said in the game thread, do you really envision a bud norris and jason castro-led team having a better shot at getting us a ring in 3-5 years than our current team plus halladay would now?
You are overpricing these players. Look at what Santana went for just two years ago. A package of Castro, Norris, Lyles, and maybe some guy like Paronto, or Lo could net you one of those guys. There are other teams that can offer more, but nobody has seemed willing to match anywhere near what the Blue Jays are asking for him.
Not realistic. Some of us have said that. Still worth talking about since people have brought it up. Disagree on Pence.. I'd think they'd take him and put him out there w/Wells and Rios, letting him take over for Wells whenever Vernon's contract is finally up
Wells has like 5 more years on his contract. That's the problem. They'd love to replace Vernon with Pence, but they can't. It's just silly to me to talk about trading basically nothing for Halladay when other teams involved are debating offering up true blue chip studs. Guys that the Astros should be considering are Jarrod Washburn, Eric Bedard (if the Ms make him available) and Justin Douscherer (SP-As, can't remember how to spell his name).
That was a different situation and there were better packages that the Minnesota GM turned down hoping someone would offer up a lot more later in the winter, but then he was burned b/c he had to trade Johan to get something for him. Toronto and Cleveland can keep these guys and trade them later if they'd like b/c they are under contract for more than just this year. I don't think either team trades Lee or Halladay if they don't get exactly what they want right now, they'll wait till the offseason. I would take either for Norris, Castro and Lyles, but if they want a ML ready player you have to include a Pence/Bourn and then you significantly weaken the ML team.
very few people (2-3 in this thread) are saying we shouldn't gut the farm. others are either for it or saying we don't have the pieces to do it
Terrible example. The Twins GM sucks. He had SIGNIFICANTLY better offers on the table from the Yankees and Red Sox, but he got greedy and tried to play them off each other for even more. When the Yankees finally told him to go screw himself, the Red Sox pulled out of the negotiations as well and Smith got stuck taking a crap package from the Mets. Santana also had 1 year left on his deal and the Twins needed to cut payroll for the upcoming season. Halladay has another year on his contract and the Jays don't NEED to cut payroll right now. Lee is even worse because he is signed next year to a cheap deal that the Indians have no need to move. Both of these guys are only getting traded for big time packages. The guys being talked about are names like Happ, Joba, Hughes, Bucholz, Masterson, Drabek, Kershaw, Wade Davis, Brignac, etc. The Astros just don't have the players to get into that kind of conversation.
I agree, I thought the thread was dumb (no offense, op) at this point, knowing what the Jays are asking for and what the Phils are willing to give up (the Phils are willing to give up more than the Astros can offer, and the Jays are still turning it down). But if everyone keeps talking, I'm gonna reply! no thanks on Dusch.. Washburn/Bedard are good options I think. Though Washburn's pricetag might be a little high compared to what he's actually worth imo.. and I think Bedard's contract isn't too nice?
