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Should some troops be removed from Iraq/Afghanistan and sent to New Orleans

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AMS, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

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    I really hope so.
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    New Orleans Mayor Issues 'Desperate SOS'
    Sep 01 5:39 PM US/Eastern


    By ADAM NOSSITER
    Associated Press Writer

    NEW ORLEANS

    Storm victims were raped and beaten, fights and fires broke out, corpses lay out in the open, and rescue helicopters and law enforcement officers were shot at as flooded-out New Orleans descended into anarchy Thursday. "This is a desperate SOS," the mayor said.

    Anger mounted across the ruined city, with thousands of storm victims increasingly hungry, desperate and tired of waiting for buses to take them out.

    "We are out here like pure animals. We don't have help," the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center, where corpses lay in the open and the and other evacuees complained that they were dropped off and given nothing _ no food, no water, no medicine.

    About 15,000 to 20,000 people who had taken shelter at the convention center to await buses grew increasingly hostile. Police Chief Eddie Compass said he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, but they were quickly beaten back by an angry mob.


    "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon."

    In hopes of defusing the unrest at the convention center, Mayor Ray Nagin gave the refugees permission to march across a bridge to the city's unflooded west bank for whatever relief they can find. But the bedlam at the convention center appeared to make leaving difficult.

    A military heliocpter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.


    National Guardsmen poured in to help restore order and put a stop to the looting, carjackings and gunfire that have gripped New Orleans in the days since Hurricane Katrina plunged much of the city under water.

    In a statement to CNN, Nagin said: "This is a desperate SOS. Right now we are out of resources at the convention center and don't anticipate enough buses. We need buses. Currently the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we're running our of supplies."

    In Washington, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the government is sending in 1,400 National Guardsmen a day to help stop looting and other lawlessness in New Orleans. Already, 2,800 National Guardsmen are in the city, he said.

    But across the flooded-out city, the rescuers themselves came under attack from storm victims.

    "Hospitals are trying to evacuate," said Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Cheri Ben-Iesan, spokesman at the city emergency operations center. "At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in people are shooting at them. There are people just taking potshots at police and at helicopters, telling them, `You better come get my family.'"

    Some Federal Emergency Management rescue operations were suspended in areas where gunfire has broken out, Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said in Washington. "In areas where our employees have been determined to potentially be in danger, we have pulled back," he said.

    A National Guard military policeman was shot in the leg as he and a man scuffled for the MP's rifle, police Capt. Ernie Demmo said. The man was arrested.

    "These are good people. These are just scared people," Demmo said.

    Outside the Convention Center, the sidewalks were packed with people without food, water or medical care, and with no sign of law enforcement. Thousands of storm refugees had been assembling outside for days, waiting for buses that did not come.

    At least seven bodies were scattered outside, and hungry people broke through the steel doors to a food service entrance and began pushing out pallets of water and juice and whatever else they could find.


    An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered with a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet.

    "I don't treat my dog like that," 47-year-old Daniel Edwards said as he pointed at the woman in the wheelchair. "I buried my dog." He added: "You can do everything for other countries but you can't do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military but you can't get them down here."

    The street outside the center, above the floodwaters, smelled of urine and feces, and was choked with dirty diapers, old bottles and garbage.

    "They've been teasing us with buses for four days," Edwards said.

    People chanted, "Help, help!" as reporters and photographers walked through. The crowd got angry when journalists tried to photograph one of the bodies, and covered it over with a blanket. A woman, screaming, went on the front steps of the convention center and led the crowd in reciting the 23rd Psalm.

    John Murray, 52, said: "It's like they're punishing us."

    The Superdome, where some 25,000 people were being evacuated by bus to the Houston Astrodome, descended into chaos as well.

    Huge crowds, hoping to finally escape the stifling confines of the stadium, jammed the main concourse outside the dome, spilling out over the ramp to the Hyatt hotel next door _ a seething sea of tense, unhappy, people packed shoulder-to-shoulder up to the barricades where heavily armed National Guardsmen stood.

    At the front of the line, heavily armed policemen and guardsmen stood watch and handed out water as tense and exhausted crowds struggled onto buses. At the back end of the line, people jammed against police barricades in the rain. Luggage, bags of clothes, pillows, blankets were strewn in the puddles.

    Many people had dogs and they cannot take them on the bus. A police officer took one from a little boy, who cried until he vomited. "Snowball, snowball," he cried. The policeman told a reporter he didn't know what would happen to the dog.

    Fights broke out. A fire erupted in a trash chute inside the dome, but a National Guard commander said it did not affect the evacuation. After a traffic jam kept buses from arriving at the Superdome for nearly four hours, a near-riot broke out in the scramble to get on the buses that finally did show up.


    Col. Henry Whitehorn, head of state police, said authorities are working on establishing a temporary jail to hold people accused of looting and other crimes. "These individuals will not take control of the city of New Orleans," he said.

    The first of hundreds of busloads of people evacuated from the Superdome arrived early Thursday at their new temporary home _ another sports arena, the Houston Astrodome, 350 miles away.

    But the ambulance service in charge of taking the sick and injured from the Superdome suspended flights after a shot was reported fired at a military helicopter. Richard Zuschlag, chief of Acadian Ambulance, said it was too dangerous for his pilots.


    Terry Ebbert, head of the city's emergency operations, warned that the slow evacuation at the Superdome had become an "incredibly explosive situation," and he bitterly complained that FEMA was not offering enough help.

    "This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace," he said. "FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans."

    In Washington, the White House said President Bush will tour the devastated Gulf Coast region on Friday and has asked his father and former President Clinton to lead a private fund-raising campaign for victims.

    The president urged a crackdown on the lawlessness.

    "I think there ought to be zero tolerance of people breaking the law during an emergency such as this _ whether it be looting, or price gouging at the gasoline pump, or taking advantage of charitable giving or insurance fraud," Bush said. "And I've made that clear to our attorney general. The citizens ought to be working together."

    On Wednesday, Mayor Ray Nagin offered the most startling estimate yet of the magnitude of the disaster: Asked how many people died in New Orleans, he said: "Minimum, hundreds. Most likely, thousands." The death toll has already reached at least 126 in Mississippi.

    Nagin called for a total evacuation of New Orleans, saying the city had become uninhabitable for the 50,000 to 100,000 who remained behind after the city of nearly a half-million people was ordered cleared out over the weekend.

    The mayor said that it will be two or three months before the city is functioning again and that people would not be allowed back into their homes for at least a month or two.

    "A great American city is fighting for its life," he added. "We must rebuild New Orleans, the city that gave us jazz, and music, and multiculturalism."

    Lt. Gov. Mitch Landrieu toured the stricken areas said rescued people begged him to pass information to their families. His pocket was full of scraps of paper on which he had scribbled down their phone numbers.

    When he got a working phone in the early morning hours Thursday, he contacted a woman whose father had been rescued and told her: "Your daddy's alive, and he said to tell you he loves you."

    "She just started crying. She said, `I thought he was dead,'" he said.
     
  2. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    There are over a million troops here in the states - a tiny percent of which should have been deployed days ago.
     
  3. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Agreed. adeelsiddiqui, i hope that was a "tongue in cheek" suggestion. If we had had proper preparation for evacuating the poor, the elderly, the infirm, the sick, and those on the margins of society out of New Orleans before the hurricane hit we still wouldn't have gotten everyone out, but we should have gotten most of those out who are suffering today. That would have at least made an incredible problem not as horrific as it is now. The people of New Orleans were failed by their government.



    Keep D&D Ciil!!
     
    #3 Deckard, Sep 2, 2005
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2005
  4. vwiggin

    vwiggin Contributing Member

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    If we cannot deal with humanitarian efforts on our own soil, what kind of message does this send to the Iraqi people?

    I'll bet the insurgents in Iraq are pretty emboldened right now.
     
  5. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    So, we should pull troops out of that area? Won't that make them more emboldened?

    Anyway, no. We have the manpower in the States to do the job, we just won't mobilize them for some mysterious reason. Besides, it'd be way too late by the time soldiers arrived from Iraq or Afghanistan.
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    i'm not even remotely qualified to answer that question. i'm guessing none of us are.
     
  7. vwiggin

    vwiggin Contributing Member

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    I didn't say anything about pulling troops from Iraq. I agree with you. If we pull troops from Iraq now, the insurgents will be even more encouraged.

    I'm simply saying our inability to respond to domestic emergency is making us look like chumps.

    Let's also remember that it will cost billions of dollars to rebuild the region affected by Katrina. Surely some of the resources we've earmarked for reconstruction in Iraq may be siphoned for our domestic reconstruction. No one would blame us for it, since people understand that you have to take care of your own first.

    But again, that's not going to raise the confidence of the Iraqi people.
     
  8. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    On that, we can agree. And, I think you've raised the more cogent question: should we pull money out of Iraq to go to New Orleans? On that, we're in a bind.
     
  9. vwiggin

    vwiggin Contributing Member

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    I hope we wouldn't. It has always been our plan to stabilize Iraq's oil producing capabilities so that Iraq can start selling more oil and pay for its own reconstruction. But due to the constant attacks on the pipelines by the insurgents, we have no idea when Iraq can start pumping enough oil to pull itself out of poverty.

    There is also the possibility that our economy is going to suffer from the rising oil prices. The world is just full of good news today. :(
     
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Why didn't the poor WALK out of NO? Given 24 hours advance warning, if you are not infirm, you should be able to evacuate regardless of the availability of buses.
     
  11. Major

    Major Member

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    Yes, because clearly walking around in a hurricane is a brilliant idea. :rolleyes: Where did you expect them to go? At 3 miles an hour (average walking speed) - assuming they could walk nonstop, they'd be 70 miles out of the city in the middle of a 100 mile wide hurricane. Brilliant.
     
  12. Baqui99

    Baqui99 Contributing Member

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    Please tell me you're not serious.
     
  13. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Yes, we are in a bind. I would suggest that we get more money coming into government coffers by recinding a large chunk of the tax cuts Bush and the Republican Congress have been handing out since the 2000 elections. That would be a start. And yes, we (the Blade Runner household) make enough that we would have to pay more taxes. We don't mind doing it. This is an emergency. So is a war.



    Keep D&D Civil!!
     
  14. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Why don't we just let them all swim to Madagascar.
     
  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    How about Lutcher, Lockport, or Thibidaux, all within 70 road miles of NO. That assumes that no one is willing to give them a ride when they are seen walking out of the city. The hurricane is irrelevent because they would be out walking BEFORE the hurricane reached New Orleans and are walking away from the hurricane. If nothing else, the sight of 100,000 people walking out of the city should draw the attention of relief agencies, leading to more busing. I'm not saying it is the best solution, but staying put does not seem to have worked out so well for a good number of those who went that way.
     
  16. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Question: If the evacuation was mandatory . . why were the hospitals not evacuation?

    Rocket River
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

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    If I had the choice of staying in my home or wandering outside hoping to reach a city somewhere, I'd stay in my home. Walking 70 miles, even if someone was capable of that, is possibly the worst thing a person could do. What if the hurricane changed direction and hit you head on there?
     
  18. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    I can't believe you actually spent time typing out a reply to that bullshht
     
  19. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Contributing Member

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    StupidMoniker is living up to his screenname :rolleyes:
     
  20. SwoLy-D

    SwoLy-D Contributing Member

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    No.
    [Sorry, I am new to this D & D thing. I answered a simple question. Did I do that right?] :cool:
     

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