The problem though is that there already are heavy fines / penalty on prostitution considering it is illegal and the penalty for engaging in it is jail time. This isn't a speeding ticket we are talking about. In terms of the cost to benefit ratio consider though with mandatory drug sentencing laws the cost side of getting caught with doing drugs has gone up yet drugs are still relatively easy to obtain and there are still many people using it. I highly doubt making enforcement of prostitution more heavy handed will lead to the end of prostitution. The problem with this point is that you are conflating all prostitution with child prostitution as if legalization of prostitution means including child prostitution. I don't think anyone is for child prostitution just as saying that alcohal should remain legal doesn't mean we should have no drinking age. As I said before I don't believe legal prostitution would wipe out child prostitution or sex slavery but it would provide a regulatory standard for an unregulated industry. Also know that there is a legal outlet those who are legal will be more willing to cooperate with authorities to help with catching those who engage in the worst types of behavior. The problem with this argument is that many of the most socially progressive countries with the biggest social safety nets have legal prostitution. The idea that its all about the profit motive belies that many of these countries have come to the conclusion that simply leaving prostitution to the black market is an unwinable fight so its better to try to bring it out in the open to be able to control it and provide social services to those in it. Taking another tangent you've mentioned doing something you wouldn't want your kids to do. I asked this earlier but didn't get a response so I will restate it. Would you want your kids (provided they are 18 and up) to do p*rnography? If not then should all p*rnography be banned? I raise this question since there is obviously a strong moral argument involving being debased and / or exploited to having sex for money but aren't actors in a porno doing that very thing which is still considered legal.
And illegal prostitution goes on more often than you think.... Just as Johns not getting the clap everytime they hire a hooker, I'm not saying that you'll be ripped off everytime on Craigslist. What I am saying is that Craigslist creates a market beyond physical retailers and it's not always about removing the middleman.
In Texas, Solicitation of Prostitution is a Class B Misdemenor, maximum of 180 days in jail. It is essentially the same slap on the wrist as a first DWI. It is closer to a speeding ticket than the punishment for a real crime.
The penalty is not large enough because it is still worth it to do this obviously. The difference between prostitution and drugs is addiction. Yes, sex is addictive as well, but it's not close to how addictive drugs are. I didn't mean to say child prostitution. I meant your son or daughter, not matter what the age, you wouldn't want them to be prostitutes. Same goes for your brother/sister and mother/father obviously. p*rnography is impossible to control since it can come in any format. It should be illegal IMO with fines for it being huge, and your record being published if you are caught. This will encourage more people to just go out and have sex. I havent thought about this completely, but I can't imagine there's a benefit to legal p*rnography. If you want to make it yourself, and give it/sell it to someone else, that's your business. But an industry just doesn't make sense to me. As I mentioned before, if you bought the movie, you payed the actors, so you payed for HER to have sex. No one said to simply leave it. I'm saying keep it illegal, and make sure if it happens, it's extremely risky. Make it so risky such that working at a McDonald's makes more sense. Prostitutes make good money right now, unless they are sex slaves. If they sleep with one person a day, that's good money unless someone is eating up their profit (a pimp). Lots of them make $100 per hour. That's pretty good if you ask me. It can also be argued that it's a monopoly since only women can do it.
I say yes why not? If men want to pay for sex and women want to have sex for money it don't hurt me at all
If everyone who goes to a prostitute puts on a condom, then does it make sense that prostitutes are actually safer than sluts? They wouldn't have any STD's since they're always protected. I thought there is already prostitution in Houston. What do you label those escorts and "spa" workers? They advertise just like prostitutes and w**** houses, except they don't use the words explicitly. I voted "yes" because I think prostitution should be seen as a form of entertainment. It's much safer than drugs (if you put the condom on).
I have to admit I'm not familiar with all of the state's laws and am surprised at the laxity of the Texas laws but consider that in Islamic countries like Indonesia where the penalty for prostitution is very severe and Saudi Arabia where adultery whether paid for or not, the penalty is death there is still prostitution. Sex might not be the same type of addiction as drugs yet there is obviously a strong complusion towards obtaining sex even at great risk. Consider what happened to Eliot Spitzer who while not facing jail time has destroyed his career and reputation to frequent a prostitute. Even with sever penalties the market for prostitution is still likely to be there. Would I want my kids or other family engaging in prostitution? No I wouldn't but there are many things I wouldn't want them doing either such as drinking a lot or appearing on the American Idol (or voting for John McCain ) What my own personal morality is though regarding many things doesn't mean that those things don't exist and to enforce an impractical legislation on them doesn't mean it will wipe such things out. Anyway just because prostitution is legal doesn't mean that automatically everyone's kids will be doing it. Prostitution is legal in NV but you don't see a tidal wave of Nevadans becoming prostitutes or frequenting prostitutes. Like most things it is up to families to instill the values and upbringing that they want to see in their kids. So while I'm for legalized prostitution I wouldn't raise kids to aspire to be prostitutes anymore than I would tell kids they should make a career out of dishwashing. If only it was that easy. Have you considered though that if people went out to have more sex that would mean way more prostitution? Consider though that p*rnography has been around practically as long as humans have found the ability to make visual representations of things and practically every great move in communication has been very quickly used for p*rnography whether it be from mass producting "rutting books" using the Guttenberg printing press to the Internet I think you are missing the strong impetus for p*rnography across practically every human culture. TO say that we should just do away with the industry is to ignore the many possible unpleasent externalities that may arise from driving something that there is clearly a desire for underground. Again just look at Prohibition. Prohibitionist made the same arguments that you are making regarding prostitution, and p*rnography, ie do you want to see your kids drinking demon rum, but banning alcohal proved to be a terrible move that benefitted criminals far more than it did society. Drug dealers can make good money too, rum runners during prohibition made great money. Simply making something illegal doesn't reduce the profit incentive if there is a strong enough demand for it. In fact it makes it even more of an incentive as the price goes up as the demand still stays while the supply dwindles. Uh... I'm not sure where you live but there are plenty of male prostitutes too. Haven't you heard of the term "gigolo?"
Is my understanding that the major objections is that Legalizing Prostitution will lead to 1. More prostitutes in a Slave like existance? 2. Less enforcement on illegal Prostitution? I would like to point to Alcohol Prohibition. How widespread is illegal Alcohol Operations? Is there a bunch of enforcement on that end? As for the High Fines proposal It is easier to collect Taxes from legal institutions than Fines from illegal activity Rocket River
the decision to legalize prostitution should be left to state legislatures who can run the risk of getting voted out of office if the majority of people in their state disagree with it based on their own moral viewpoints. In other words its a morality question not a logical one (because yes there obviously is a market for prostitution) next.
Rocketsjudoka, You make good, solid points but it seems the conclusion is the same... Legalizing these things makes no difference as far as we know. If there are a heapload of sex slaves in Amsterdam then clearly the system doesn't work. I still prefer that we enforce harsher fines on pimps specifically while taking a slightly laxer stance on prostitutes themselves. I also think that if a person thinks prostitution should be legal, then those who engage in it shouldn't be ashamed of what they are doing, therefore having it on public record shouldn't be a problem. After all, you don't mind taking taxes from it, you don't mind the sale, you are purchasing it... What's the big deal right? IMO, I can agree with you that making it illegal doesn't solve the problem. To me, I would rather not participate in using taxes from prostitution. That is an importance choice to others too, I'm sure. However, I would definitely want a cut of the FINES on prostitution, because I consider that money to be made ethically. It's a question of different people and their morals and ethics. Others may not care about this, and that is understandeable. But I don't think a whole country should be forced to part-take in this kind of thing. Yes, I am aware that there are gigolos, but clearly their success is minuscule compared to women, and this has been the case forever. I don't think that, for the forseeable future, men can challenge that position with any significance. Who knows though, things change.
The experience though with Prohibition shows that legalizing something that while acknowledged causes harm but is still widely demanded can actually eliminate many problems that were caused by making it illegals. The problem with these things is that there are always externalities that must be considered, and often aren't obvious. The problem with Prohibition was that while yes alcohal causes many problems outlawing it creates bigger problems. In regard to Amsterdam though if you read MadMax's piece on the subject the problem there is largely that they don't enforce the laws they have on the books. That would be akin to if health inspectors didn't enforce health regulations at that point whether being legal or not there isn't a distinction since no standards are enforced. Whether people should or shouldn't be ashamed of it while important I don't think is that germane to whether its legal or not. For instance I'm not proud that one of the jobs I had right out of school was being a party facilitator (one of the guys who went around with the Bacardi girls to bars to encourage people to drink more Bacardi) At the sametime I never enjoyed being a dishwasher and glad I don't have to that for money. There are many things that people aren't proud of doing but if that was the basis of what was legal we would have to outlaw many many occupations. That argument though can apply to many things such as what about taxe revenues from gambling, tobacco sales, or alcohal? For that matter as someone concerned with global warming I don't like that gasoline is the primary fuel cars are driven on so should I then say that we shouldn't be taking taxe revenue from something that is causing harm? In a way this is the converse argument that people make regarding saying they don't like their taxes paying for a war they don't agree with. The problem though with those type of arguments is that while we are individuals as a republican democracy though these decisions are made collectively so whether you don't like that money is being made off of something you find offensive or someone else that their taxes are paying for a war they don't agree with as an individual your responsibility is mediated by our elected representatives. I would agree though that any move to widely legalize prostitution should be left to the states and not the Fed. My own understanding is that this is already the case which is why NV is currently the only state with legalized prostititution. I don't have statistics to support this but I suspect that male prostitutes (including ones that service men) are actually a fairly signifigant portion of prostitutes. Anyway I respect that you have a moral position on this issue and I'm not going to argue the morality of prostitution. My own concern has to do that I think the externalities of keeping prostitution illegal are in many ways worse than prostitution itself. This might though be that I have a libertarian outlook in several things.
Just because you legalize it, it doesn't kill the criminal element that comes along with this. It appears from reading this that they know it brings crime in Amsterdam...but they live with it in certain sectors because it's great for tourism. Sorry, but that argument rationale falls on its face with me. Sex slave trade can kiss my white ass...those are human beings and rationalizing this for cash and tourism is a bobsled to hell. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6150598.html Amsterdam to close many brothels, mar1juana cafes By TOBY STERLING Associated Press Dec. 6, 2008, 8:06AM AMSTERDAM, Netherlands — Amsterdam unveiled plans Saturday to close up to half of the famed brothels and mar1juana cafes in its ancient city center as part of a major cleanup operation. The city says it wants to drive organized crime out of the district, and is targeting businesses that "generate criminality," including prostitution, gambling parlors, "smart shops" that sell herbal treatments, head shops and "coffee shops" where mar1juana is sold openly. "I think that the new reality will be more in line with our image as a tolerant and crazy place, rather than a free zone for criminals" said alderman Lodewijk Asscher, one of the main proponents of the plan. The city said it also would reduce the number of business it sees as related to the "decay" of the center, including peep shows, sex theaters, sex shops, mini supermarkets, massage parlors and souvenir shops. The city said there were too many of these and it believes some are used for money-laundering by drug dealers and the human traffickers who supply many of the city's prostitutes. Asscher underlined that the city will remain true to its freewheeling reputation. "It'll be a place with 200 windows (for prostitutes) and 30 coffee shops, which you can't find anywhere else in the world — very exciting, but also with cultural attractions and you won't have to be embarrassed to say you came," he said. Under the plan announced Saturday, Amsterdam will spend $38 million to $51 million to bring hotels, restaurants, art galleries and boutiques to the center. It also will build new underground parking areas for cars and bikes and might use some of the vacated buildings to ease a housing shortage. Amsterdam already had plans to close many brothels and said last month it might close some coffee shops throughout the city, but the plans announced Saturday go much further. Asscher said the city would use various techniques to reshape the area, including rezoning, buying out some businesses and offering others assistance in "upgrading" their stores. In the past, the city has shut a number of brothels and sex clubs, relying primarily on a law that allows the closure of businesses with bookkeeping irregularities. He said the city also will offer help for prostitutes and coffee shop employees who lose their jobs as a result of the plan. Prostitution, which has spread into several areas of the center, will be allowed only in two areas — notably De Wallen ("The Walls"), a web of streets and alleys around the city's medieval retaining dam walls. The area has been a center of prostitution since before the city's golden shipping age in the 1600s. Prostitution was legalized in the Netherlands in 2000, formalizing a long-standing tolerance policy. mar1juana is technically illegal in the Netherlands, but prosecutors won't press charges for possession of small amounts and the coffee shops are able to sell it openly.
The knife that cuts your food can be used to stab someone in the eye. My posts in this marathon thread already discussed this rationale, so I'll leave it at that.
Another point to consider out of this is that how the general public makes purchasing decisions in good times is much different than how they act when times are bad. People might choose a safety premium if they have money (like organic foods), but when recession hits, those considerations go away (McDonalds value meals). And some people knowingly eat fast food despite the higher chance of mad cow or other forms of tainted meat just because it satisfies their palate and cost value to the point where they don't care about other moral considerations.
Well, Sure. Keep it off streets, tax it, require STD testing. As long as girls (Or guys) cannot walk around on the street. Why not?
No prostitution should not be 'right' for women or men. Sex is a great gift in a loving marriage. Lust is the opposite of Love Sex apart from a committed loving relationship breeds lust. Sex just for pleasure or profit destroys at least 5 very important things in a person: 1. Trust- lust destroys trust which destroys real love; genuine love depends upon and only exists where there is genuine trust 2. Freedom- lust destroys freedom; freedom is an inward power to give and serve, a lust yielded to creates greater lusts; that is the definition of bondage; once a slave to lust there is no longer freedom to give and serve with a pure motive 3. Purity- purity brings joy to relationships because there is a lack of guilt and shame; often things have to be hidden in relationships and that destroys intimacy; purity builds intimacy and brings peace of mind 4. Security- when you give away your body you give away respect; that may seem small but unless you can respect yourself you cannot respect others and you will be only as secure as your relationships are shallow 5. Love- it may seem obvious but few people understand true love. Where there is love there is unconditional honor and commitment; when love is replaced by lust then self centered conditions become the means of life. Prostitution destroys genuine love- that is reason enough to say no. I have to look into the faces of about 9 little girls from the ages of 4-11 every Sunday morning; they have such pure and beautiful hearts; I cannot imagine them growing up and making that kind of choice without experiencing very damaging situations in their lives. I would not wish that upon anyone. There is at least (edit)-1 former prostitute in our church (maybe 2 I am not for certain). I am fairly certain she has more experience in this than most of us here and I believe she would agree with me, if no one else here does.
