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Should ClutchFans allow hate speech?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by durvasa, Apr 27, 2022.

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Hate Speech on Clutchfans?

  1. Yes. I'm a free speech absolutist.

    5 vote(s)
    23.8%
  2. No thanks.

    16 vote(s)
    76.2%
  1. txtony

    txtony Member

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    DaDakota likes this.
  2. txtony

    txtony Member

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    Most things in life are not straight lines. In terms of hate speech, maybe a better analogy is a contagious virus that has a hate payload. Not everyone exposed will be hateful, but they will be impacted in some way, and many will likely spread a version of it if they aren't careful.
     
  3. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong

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    The "mind germs" analogy cuts both ways.

    You know how you create strong immune systems? Reasonable exposure to pathogens, particularly during the first quarter of life.

    If you keep people in curated/sanitized bubbles of information, they will be more susceptible to bad ideas.

    Worse yet, if you go around censoring folks, you do several negative things:

    A) Create a forbidden fruit or Streisand effect
    B) You wall off these people from regular society, thereby:
    1. amplifying the echo-chamber
    2. making it harder for their patrons to go clear
    3. causing others to forget about how pernicious the pathogen actually is (see Trump's popularity rising post ban)
    The only true cure for a bad idea is a good idea.
     
    B-Bob, txtony and durvasa like this.
  4. DaDakota

    DaDakota Never Trump
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    There is NO FREE SPEECH on a private platform.

    Some people are TOXIC, you have to cut the cancer out. They either learn to play nice or they will ruin a community.

    I get that the ideal of - it's ok everyone deserves a voice is great, but not applicable on a private platform and it will run good people away.

    People have enough strife in their everyday life, why add more with toxic people and posts.....you cut em out......

    You can give them warnings or a series of bans before perma banning them, but they need to adhere to the rules of the forum owner.

    DD
     
  5. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    1. That isn't hate speech. It's just a opinion

    2. It's an interesting discussion on how different brains work. There are thousands of people who also worked hard and paid off student loan debt and still believe that student debt should mostly be forgiven. So some people who work hard also believe that others after them shouldn't be punished for a bad system even though they were. Just different philosophies. One is more self-centered though.
     
  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    fify
     
  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    How far back are we expanding the time frame here? Because is it equitable how much you paid for college vs modern students?
     
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  8. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong

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    One has to wonder if all this free speech herp and derp would go away if we had a government owned social media platform.
     
  9. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D
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    About 6 weeks ago Facebook removed one of my posts because I included a link to a math version of the game Wordle called Nerdle. I appealed the decision. They apologized and reinstated my post.
     
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  10. txtony

    txtony Member

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    I like that.

    B1 is already in effect by choice made easy by tech (selective "block" and "follow").

    The cure for "mind germ" is either stopping it from even happening (prevention) or after it has happened (treatments). Once it has grown inside a person, it is so much more difficult to cure. Once it has grown in society, it's next to impossible to get rid of - it becomes endemic.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa (he/him/his)
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    I'm curious what the result of this poll would have been if I worded the question somewhat differently:

    Would you be OK with a new D&D policy that permits all forms of hate speech?
    * Yes
    * No

    I'm thinking it would likely be much closer.
     
  12. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    My answer would be "no".
     
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  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Even that is poorly worded as "OK" can be problematic.

    More neutral would simply be:

    "Should the D&D policy permit all forms of hate speech?"
    Yes
    No

    Clean, simple, and no room for trapping or interpretation. You still don't get an accurate answer though. Because people answer poll questions based mostly on how they see themselves vs the reality of a situation if it came to fruition. Meaning someone might feel it's a good idea, but in reality complain about it if it happened. That's the paradoxical nature of humanity.
     
  14. B-Bob

    B-Bob my celli weighs a ton

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    Yeah, I'm not fomfomtable asking Clutch and other mods to try to define "hate speech" on the daily. No matter how you define it, some post will push the line in a new, unexpected direction. Right now they judge extreme posts on a case-by-case basis, and to me it seems to work well enough.

    I've mainly migrated to NBA Dish and Hangout and have really enjoyed myself TBH.
     
  15. durvasa

    durvasa (he/him/his)
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    I think there are at least some posters who don't think D&D policy "should" be one way or the other. If mods are going to enforce and kick out hate speech according to some definition, they'd be fine with that, or if mods decide that anything legal goes and we're otherwise on our own then they'd be fine with that too. I'd like to draw a line between such an opinion and an opinion that certain forms of hate speech should be prohibited on here.
     
  16. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D
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    The line is that you can call Chad a ****ing f*****, but if you called a member of the board a ****ing f*****, you'd most likely get tossed.
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    You're asking about how someone would feel in a hypothetical situation. The problem with that is people don't know how they would actually feel in a hypothetical unless that hypothetical actually happens. So it's considered a misleading poll question. This is how you poll if you are looking to do push polling or get a skewed result to support a narrative, not to actually get to a fundamental truth.
     
  18. DaDakota

    DaDakota Never Trump
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    Yep, perma banned.

    DD
     
  19. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    I've been swamped with work and other stuff the last few days so just now glancing through this thread. A couple of quick points.

    This is private for profit cyber property so there is no concept of free speech here anymore than inside a Starbucks store. If I don't like that I can't post whatever I want I can certainly go Spurstalk or some other sports general interest site. I could even start my own site for the Minnesota Timberwolves (Guaranteed to disappoint) if I wanted to. That is the balance between private property and free speech. Clutch is not obligated legally or ethically to grant us free speech here but at the same time he can't use the force of law to make us participate.

    Next I see people bring up the size of Clutchfans versus Twitter. Claims that because Twitter is very large and has a worldwide reach means that somehow free speech should apply more to it than Clutchfans is very subjective. My understanding is that Clutchfans is one of the larger fan sites and a site that has been referenced by both local and national sports commentators. It also has a worldwide following with regular posters from several countries. Also given the unique nature of who has played on the Rockets it's been a forum where sensitive and controversial geopolitical issues have been discussed. Specifically given that many other US based social media sites are either banned or difficult to access in the PRC it's been a way for many people from there to directly engage with people in the US and other countries. In that sense Clutchfans size and scope is large and is far different than say my neighborhood in Minneapolis' text circle.

    So then when does Clutchfans get large enough that it is considered a "Townsquare"? Or for that matter social media sites can grow but they also can shrink. Does MySpace not qualify for the same free speech arguments now made about Twitter and FB? If we were writing this in 2007 would the self-declared Free Speech Absolutist be arguing for free speech on MySpace? And if Twitter nosedives and shrinks do the same arguments apply?

    I see that John Stuart Mills is being brought up again too. Mills was very much for free speech but he wasn't a "Free Speech Absolutist". In "On Liberty" he specifically states that free speech can be limited when it's used to incite violence. That is pretty much the reason why Twitter took down Trump an several other accounts following January 6th. So even taking Mill's argument a social media site not only could but should ban speech that is considered hateful on the basis that it could incite violence.
     
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  20. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    fwiw it's Mill, not Mills. John Stuart Mill. Not to be confused with General Mills, the cereal maker :p

    I take it you were referring to me

    as stated, the topic came up in another thread:

     
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