The government hasn't sanctioned anything in this case. If you are arguing that the government should step in and tell the club that they can't do this, then you are on the fringe of this argument. Even the people who have been the most critical of Augusta do not advocate government intervention.
I'm really confused by this "men need a place for men" argument. I'm guessing that most of the men arguing for this aren't the "wild men" who go into the woods to express their feelings with drumming circles and chanting around a big bonfire. Besides, how exactly does allowing women at a golf course require that you interact with them? Do men actually need a secured perimeter of a few thousand yards to be men together? And, I'm assuming that this would also apply to the women that work at Augusta? Should they be gone as well because, well, men need to be with ONLY men? How about pictures of women or magazines with women in them? Should they be banned at Augusta? After all this is for MEN ONLY, damnit. It's just so bizarre. Just because they play there doesn't mean YOU have to play with them. If you want to argue the rights of the business owner and blah, blah, blah, whatever. Go ahead. But, to argue that we men must preserve our manliness through manly pursuits with only men, well, I could point out a few places in Montrose that could accommodate you better than Augusta.
I have this feeling that you know what I'm talking about and just aren't addressing it. But since you answered the way you did...are you saying that a group of guys who want a place to go hang with the guys must be gay? That's a wierd notion. I hope somebody tells their wives. You say it's bizarre...to YOU it may be. To somebody else (ie the guys who started the club) it may make perfect sense. Who are you or I to say? That's what is so bizarre to me...that people are making value judgments and casting aspersions at people they don't know. That's odd behavior.
My sweet female *ass* I'm on the fringe of this argument! I totally believe that the government's position on this - tacit approval - is inconsistent and insupportable, due in large part to the failure of the ERA. No one has yet adequately explained to me why gender discrimination and racial discrimination are different things for private clubs. (Note: 'sanctioned' = 'approved' to both of us, right?)
The "Black" Experience and the "Woman's" Experience are two different situations entirely and should be viewed as such. JMHO
If you are so mainstream in your view that Augusta's policy should be illegal...who else is saying it? If you are just one set of hands clapping...that makes you fringe.
Hey, if you can play the "caveman" card, I can certainly take my extremes. My point was that I don't understand the logic of proximity in this case. Obviously, women work at Augusta. Women are invited there by male members to play golf. I can only assume that men actually see them on the course or in the clubhouse from time to time. So, in essense, Augusta is not a place only for men. That's why I think your argument is weak. You are arguing that men need a place to bond as men but Augusta isn't it. If they had big signs saying "NO WOMEN ALLOWED" and didn't hire them and didn't allow them as guests, your argument, though I would strongly disagree, MIGHT have some degree of merit. As it is, the argument is hollow because Augusta isn't for men only. Besides, ref, when was the last time you had a bonding experience with men without any women around anywhere? And, even if you did, how much of that time was spent talking about women? My guess is alot.
Talking about the opposite sex is what people generally do when they are with their friends. Anyway I was just answering the question of how this is different from racial discrimination. I was making the point that while we live in a multicultural society, in many instances we do not live in a unisex society. Some will agree...others won't. Hell...it's just my opinion.
I'm surprised the term FemiNazis hasn't been used yet because obviously, the only thing more henious than a Nazi is a women fighting for equal rights. Anyways, here's something to add some humour to this situation. Hootie and Martha get chatty By Eric Immerman Special to Page 2 They say Instant Messaging is the most honest form of communication. The medium is private, mysterious, enigmatic, concealed ... and extremely conducive to dangerously uninhibited conversation. So, with Augusta National chairman Hootie Johnson and National Council of Women's Organizations chairwoman Martha Burk unable to settle their dispute over female membership at the golf club, Page 2 wonders if the two combatants might be able to quickly find a resolution by using IM. Perhaps by speaking behind closed (cyber) doors, the two would show sides that would never leave the (chat) room. Just imagine ... AOL PEOPLE CHAT, 8:15 p.m. TitleIX4evr -- Instant Message From: NoChix: IM for Dummies If you start reading this column and can't decipher even the first line, use this key to break the IM code. HT = Hi There WU? = What's up? JK = Just Kidding ROTFL = Rolling On The Floor Laughing BTW = By The Way IMHO = In My Humble Opinion TU = Thank You DQMOT = Don't Quote Me On That OIC = Oh, I see LOL = Laughing Out Loud omg! = oh my god! YBS = You'll Be Sorry brb = be right back ttyl = talk to you later TitleIX4evr: HT NoChix: hey TitleIX4evr: WU? NoChix: just watching repeats of "the view" on lifetime. JK TitleIX4evr: ROTFL NoChix: speaking of rolls -- u sure have been on 1 lately. BTW, nice editorial in the ny times asking tiger 2 boycott the masters. IMHO your shrewdest move yet! TitleIX4ever: TU, but it wasn't me NoChix: than who? TitleIX4evr: i think it wuz vijay singh but DQMOT NoChix: OIC TitleIX4evr: so r u ready 2 give in and admit female members? NoChix: never! TitleIX4evr: what r u so afraid of? u think women will menstruate all over the green jackets or something? Hootie Johnson is ROTFL over the NCWO's stance. NoChix: LOL! TitleIX4evr: itz not funny. drastic measures must b taken immediately! NoChix: why, what's the big deal? TitleIX4evr: affluent white women in georgia r being subjected 2 the horrors of public golf courses! NoChix: oh no, someone call jesse jackson ASAP. hehe TitleIX4evr: omg! u r so annoying NoChix: hey, i'm not the 1 going postal over this issue. I just want 2 go back 2 a time when all augusta national stood 4 wuz deftly manicured greens, beautiful azaleas, and? TitleIX4evr: racial segregation? NoChix: i wuz going 2 say a tradition like no other. besides, doesn't the national council of women's organizations have anything better 2 focus on? TitleIX4evr: like what? NoChix: i dunno, kelly ripa's new book club selection? TitleIX4evr: wow u r such a pig. u make lpga commissioner ty votaw look like betty friedan NoChix: i don't get the reference TitleIX4evr: never mind. hey, can i ask u a personal question? If you don't admit a woman to Augusta, Martha Burk says YBS. NoChix: Capricorn, baby! TitleIX4evr: no, do u, um, putt from the ruff? NoChix: of course not. i use a pitching wedge TitleIX4evr: what i mean is, r your male-only membership policies a result of u not liking women? NoChix: r u kidding? u mean u aren't sensing a certain sam & diane vibe between us? TitleIX4evr: from cheers? NoChix: yeah. the angry banter masking thinly veiled sexual tension. come on itz palpable! TitleIX4evr: u r crazy NoChix: crazy 4 u! send me a pic TitleIX4evr: no NoChix: YBS TitleIX4evr: anyway? what's the harm in admitting 1 woman in 2 the club? 1 woman b 4 the masters and i'll leave u alone NoChix: sure, today itz 1 woman, but tomorrow itz 10 women, and the next thing u know, you'll want women 2 have their very own professional golf league! TitleIX4evr: isn't there any room 4 compromise? NoChix: tell u what, how about i admit men with breasts? TitleIX4evr: huh? NoChix: yeah, u know, mickelson, daly? men w/ breasts. consider it a start TitleIX4evr: brb someone's at the door NoChix: ok TitleIX4evr: ttyl--my friends are here to watch "the bachelor" NoChix: can i come over? TitleIX4evr: sorry, no johnson's allowed!
I have tried to address this situation rationally and with reason. I have refrained from throwing around inflammatory names. As per usual when arguing with the left, anybody who disagrees is villified and painted as a freak who does nothing more than throw around epithets. I wondered how long it would take for this debate to go this way. I'm surprised that it took as long as it did. Since we have fallen this far, there is nothing else useful that can be said. I'm done with this topic now. Carry on with the name calling and such.
Dimsie...I don't know what to tell you. I've read some of Refman's responses and if he can't explain why gender discrimination and racial discrimination are different things (when it pertains to something as trivial as a golf membership), then nothing I can say will convince you either. . What I can tell you is that I'm fairly sure, that if the NOW or Dimsie wanted to open an all-women golf club or all-women tennis club that you wouldn't see men picketing to get in. When it comes to golf (and mind you, I belong to an all-men golf club ...not because i am a sexist, but rather because I choose not to golf with women if given the choice...i also belong to a family club where there a ton of women so trust me, I am not a sexist), ask most weekend hackers at the local public or private clubs, and they will tell you that they would prefer to only golf with men if given the choice. In fact, MOST "family" golf clubs have rules that discriminate even when there are women allowed as members. Women, for the most part (along with minors) cannot tee off before 11 or 12 on the weekend...why? Because most amateur women suck at golf and they tie up the course for hours. (A lot of men suck too but this is how it is) Thats why there are different tee boxes for women...because it makes the holes shorter. If women (other than maybe Annika Sorenstam) played fromthe Men's tee boxes, it would take 6 or 7 hours for them to finish. Sorry for the bluntness. Also, most of these family clubs have SEPARATE AREAS for men and women....walk into any club and I will bet you dollars to donuts that there will be at least 2 if not all of the following designated areas...(MEN'S grill room, MEN'S card room, WOMEN'S card room, MEN'S Bar, WOMEN'S grill room...along with a MIXED grill) That being said, MOST "family" golf clubs also designate one day per week (usually Tuesdays) where men cannot play before 11 or 12. Overall, its just one of those things. Look, I'm Jewish. For the most part, the clubs with the better golf courses are usually the clubs that probably would find one reason or another not to let me in because of my religion. Does it piss me off? My money is green just like theirs. Well, I never liked rejection but I look at it as "if they don't want me, i certainly don't want to be there" and for whatever the reason, they want it their way. Now, if it were the ONLY place to play golf and enjoy a country club atmosphere with a swimming pool, tennis courts, restaurant etc, then I would probably not move on so easily. All in all, the NOW has every right to do what they are doing. I just think there aer bigger obstacles that women encounter that not being able to play golf at a certain club in Georgia.
You've got to be kidding me Ref, how many times have people called NOW a group of Lesbians in this thread alone? I was just pointing out the fact that some people in here have been writing Martha Burke off as a radical femenist b**** who has ulterior motives instead of a person who is fighting for what she believes is right.
NJ -- I think most of us know that there are appreciable differences in the way men and women play golf. However, that has nothing to do with Hootie's "no girls" edict. As many posters have pointed out, women play there (as invited guests) all the time. So if it's not the playing that the club objects to, it must be the whole "membership" idea. Because if women get to be members then they get to have voting privleges in the club, etc... Clearly there are bigger issues than a little golfing club in Georgia for women's groups to tackle. But Augusta is not just a little golfing club. It is a highly visible symbol of southern white male elitism. It is where the captains of industry spend their leisure time. It dominates the media spotlight for a week every spring. And it is a place that admitted its first African-American member just slightly more than a decade ago. As I've said in other threads, I believe, eventually, Augusta will change. We may have to wait until Hootie moves on to that big fairway in the sky, but the club will join us in the 21st century. Sadly, Augusta's image (and that of its sponsors and members) has already been tarnished by the fracas.
I agree with that. If Augusta is a club where you MUST buy a bond, then every member would have voting rights. (i'm not sure if it is or not). Then all of a sudden, you have women voting for a new pink foyer...and flowers all around the main grill room etc. These guys don't want that and its their business. The want mahogany walls and trophies from their latest hunting expeditions hanging on the walls. They want to sit in the grill room with no shirt on, burp while they eat lunch, fart at the table when they are done because its what makes them happy. If Augusta was the ONLY place in Georgia to play golf, or the ONLY place that the PGA had a major championship or the ONLY place that got recognition as a golf mecca, then I would say, hey, women golf too and there is no where else to play in this state, so its not fair. But that isn't the case at all.
This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke. They want to sit in the grill room with no shirt on, burp while they eat lunch, fart at the table when they are done because its what makes them happy. Um...are we still referring to Augusta or a monster truck rally?
