I'm actually indifferent as to the actual issue. I can't stand golf. I tried playing a couple of times and frankly, if I want to be made angry to the point of swearing uncontrollably, I'll just crack open the ridiculous stuff you see in SI. That being said, I realize that there are a lot of people out there that love golf. More power to them. For this reason I think that debasing it by calling it a "girl's game" or calling large groups of people who like to play it at a member's only club (most of which don't let women in) assholes is ludicrous.
I have no problem with members' only clubs, only clubs that only let people in of a certain gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc. But thanks for trying to mangle my position.
In a sense, yes. I find what they have done (particularly calling out Tiger Woods who never asked for it) to be particularly distasteful. I find the fact that they have singled out one club rather than the SCORES of clubs that discriminate to be suspect. Their tactics suck and IMO harms their position greatly. Personally, if they want to play golf there I could give a damn. It's just not important to me. But I'm not willing to villify an entire group of men simply because they want a place to play their game and hang with the boys.
Make no mistake...it was not my intent to mangle your position. Perhaps I should have added emphasis to the parenthetical in which I noted that most golf clubs discriminate as to gender. You have my apology for any confusion.
My bad. I just think they're using the methods that are more available to them now, personally. It's a lot easier to get change made when it's fast and can affect your wallet. Well, this thread did do one thing. I now know not to plan an RM95, MadMax, Refman golf outing when I make it down there.
Then again...we could drink as much beer as you'd like in the clubhouse at a muni. BTW...a funny but true story. When Pizzatola's BBQ opened in Houston (about the same time as the civil rights movement) it was owned and operated by an African-American family. White guys had to eat "out back." I know this because my father was told that he couldn't eat in the main dining area and that white guys sat out back. That is an awesome act of defiance. I love that story.
I don't give a Jet's ass about golf myself. But I am uncomfortable with the broader issue of discrimination -- race, gender, or otherwise. And regardless of the issue of private organization's rights, this issue reeks of it -- whether that's reality or conception. But I agree that there are other areas that are more important to target than Augusta. It's really an exercise in futility to argue this here on this BBS, so mutual respect is all I ask. Oh BTW, I forgot to ask -- do you fit the race/gender profile I specified? Never mind, bad joke.
Not really, it's indicative of good entertainment. That's what we're all here for in the first place, isn't it? I much prefer watching RM95 and mduke insult one another than I do watching a collective love-fest.
It is about Money Should Augusta be allowed to NOT ALLOW women? Yes Should women be allowed to protest and make it loose money? Yes Women have the right to say . . . YOU KNOW WHAT . . .you don't want us. . . FINE . . but guess what . . anyone sponsoring you We gonna take it they don't want us EITHER. . so Mr Titlist CEO . . .we no longer buying your balls Mr. SUV CEO . . .we no longer buying your SUVs Mr PERSON WHO ADVERTISES WITH OR AFFILIATE WITH THE MASTERS . . . you don't want us. . F*CK YOU . . YOU AIN'T GETTING OUR DOLLARS Mr. I'm a member and my company is X . . .f*ck u too . .. . You ain't getting our dollars either. . .OR MY HUSBANDs [if he knows what is good for him] The thing is . . . .to an extent . . women are of the mind Why does this sexist club get the Prize Jewel in the Golf World? So this protest may DEVALUE the Masters some . . .. Look at the Montgomery Bus BoyCott. . .the issue there was they didn't want blacks sitting on the front of the bus .. . . so black stopped using the bus totally. . . so then they tried to FORCE blacks to use the busses. . . . what kind of sh*t was that Private Clubs can do what they like gues what . . . THESE WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO LIKE IT and TO WITHDRAW THEIR MONEY/SUPPORT FOR ALL CONNECT TO THOSE PRIVATE CLUBS . . hell THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE LIFE DIFFICULT FOR THOSE CLUBS [as long as it is legal] So once again . . . Should Augusta let in women .. . in my opinion yes. . .why not Should they HAVE to let in women . . . . no but they should not b**** about the consequences of those actions Rocket River then again . . it is just golf. . .
RR...for the most part, I agree with what you are saying...however... The fact of the matter is that Augusta and its Masters tourney have never relied solely on sponsors money...and they certainly haven't been strong armed to do anything in the past. They have repeatedly said that if need be, The Masters will be an uninterrupted telecast. It won't come to that though because if you think that Buick, Nike or any other of Tiger's sponsors are going to choose a bunch of screaming women over the sole reason they sell 40 zillion sets of clubs each year, you're nuts. In fact, years ago, when CBS said "Hey Hootie, we pay you guys so much damn money, we think we should be able to televise the front nine to a live audience. If we can't, I'm not sure we can pay you to televise the Masters" To which Hootie said, "Ok, let me know soon so I can line up another network" To which CBS said , " Umm, well maybe we don't really need to televise it live after all." Now, since then, starting last year I believe, CBS has televised the front nine mostly because people want to see Tiger's entire round. They certainly have every right to say that...and they will I'm sure. But, do they really think they will impact on sales that much when golf equipment companies sell billions of dollars in merchandise every year to people of all genders, races and ages? Especially since that around 30 or 40 % of the hundred thousand people or so who will flock to Augusta over the course of Master's week are women who could care less about the 100 or so women picketing the entrance?
Can some of the people who think that gender discrimination is 'OK' because women are 'different' please explain *why*? How is discrimination based on race and discrimination based on gender different? How how how (and NJRocket, I'm looking at you here)???? It's either based on skin colour, or it's based on body parts. How are women so ******* different? We are, in fact, all *people*. By the way, the 'it makes more sense to outlaw racial discrimination because African-Americans were slaves' argument doesn't cut it, historically. Until this century, women were legally the chattels of their husbands. It was legal to beat us and rape us within marriage. Contraception was illegal. If we didn't get married, we could only do a few circumscribed jobs, for which we got paid sh!tty wages. We could not vote or hold public office or inherit property. For crying out loud, until the *1970s* we couldn't get a loan from a bank without our husband's permission! Yeah, slavery was way worse, but being a woman in the USA, well, it kinda f*cking sucked too, or hadn't you noticed? Frankly, people who disrespect feminists and NOW really p!ss me off (and that includes some of the people in this thread). Without the first and second waves, I wouldn't be educated; I wouldn't be able to control my fertility; I wouldn't have a decent job with equal pay. You may think NOW is a pain in the ass, but we *all* owe a debt to feminist organisations, however irritating you think they are. Sorry for the tirade, but I've been really shocked by how overtly nasty some of you are to NOW and to feminist goals at large. Surely equality is something for which we should all strive?
dimsie-- Did this somehow escape you? We live in a world where people of all colors go to the same places. People of all genders do not go all the same places. Many people understand that the Boy Scouts is ok...but the White Scouts would be wrong. This is the same argument we're having here.
I'm not *r****ded*, Refman, even if I am a girl. My question is this: *why* is one wrong and not the other? Why is the Boy Scouts right and the White Scouts wrong? What's so 'different' about women, apart from the boobs and the c*nt and the socialisation? It just seems so lame to say, as you appear to be, that 'we live in a world where gender discrimination is commonplace, so therefore it's OK!' *Why* is it OK?
Men and women are fundamentally different. Not just the biological differences, but the way they see the world and the issues that are important to them. Since the dawn of time men and women have had places where they could commune with members of their gender and do their own thing. In caveman days we had men hunting and gathering and women tending to home and hearth. Today men and women each have places where they go to be with their friends of the same gender. A group of men started Augusta National for just this reason. It wasn't some malicious thing. The only reason this is an issue is because they built such a nice club that The Masters is played there every year. If men want a place to go to hang out with their buddies I have no problem with it. Same goes for women. In fact...I think it's important.
That really wasn't meant to be funny...I was going to extremes to prove a point. Would you have preferred "days of old?"
Ohhhhh, I see. So because prehistoric people had a sexual division of labour, women in the 21st century should be formally excluded from a golf club they already play at. Golf is like hunting and gathering, in other words? I'm with Mrs. JB: Bwahahahahahahaha!!! Look, it's obvious that men and women have different experiences (although I very much doubt whether these differences are as profound as you're arguing they are: that smacks of a ridiculous essentialism), but I believe that gender-specific social gatherings which celebrate those experiences should be *informal*, not legally sanctioned. And golf - which is the issue here - is not traditionally a gender-specific activity like going to a strip bar or having a pillowfight in your undies or something!
