This kind of talk is just simple minded........because in countries where the women are covered there is rape, and in many of them, it has to be viewed by FOUR men before the women can get justice for the rape. And this guy is a religious leader.......come on........this is just too easy. It is a barbaric way of looking at WOMEN, and treating them like they are not equals. Islam just keeps getting better and better......so forward thinking...NOT ! DD PS. On second thought, just shoot the guy, no need to deport him, that costs money, a bullet is cheaper.
Now you see how the poor iranian woman are suffering under the control of these backward pre-historic morons.
Rainbow six time baby, assasination hit squads to take them out.....all the narrow minded sheiks, and don't forget Pat Robertson. DD
I don't think you're anti-Muslim at all... Sure, you can demand an apology from him, I am referring to the article which quotes individuals who're demanding an apology/denunciation from the entire community. Women being 'second-class citizens' is a popular myth that's hardly worth a response, and would require an extensive theological discussion for which I don't have the time nor the urge to engage in. The D&D is simply not worth it -- far too many dishonest individuals who're not interested in being open-minded about this subject or any other. But obviously, yes, there are Muslim-majority societies that are patrichial in nature, and I would dare say that Muslim women aren't nearly afforded their rights even under Islam in Muslim societies. That's just one of the 'ills' common in the Muslim-majority world. Well, that's debatable. LOL! Ok...what a joke. I tolerate neo-Nazi speech, so I certainly have no problem tolerating what that guy said. So yes, I apply that standard across the board. I can defend your right to say something even if I disagree with you. Anyways, I am done 'debating' you in this thread, it's hardly worth my time.
Does blaming the victim amount to a deportable offense? If so, then Australia is definitely one country I wouldn't want to live in. You can make the case that what he said is stupid, but it's equally stupid and -- IMO -- intolerant for those individuals who're asking for the guy to be deported. That's my point...
This is a perfect example of the problems we face in the 21st century information age. Crazy people have been saying stuff since the dawn of time but it didn't get outside the community, but now some clown with a 500 congregation in Australia makes some outrageous comments and it gets debated on a Houston Rockets website. We are bringing a society that was isolated with a 19th century mentality into the 21st century in the span of 20 years. This is a major part of the problem we are facing today throughout the world. Unfortunately these socially conservative societies have access to modern weapons. This is a very dangerous time in human evolution.
I don't really care about the deportation thing. I was really only interested in your calling it "outrageous" to assume the sheikh was providing "cover" for rape. He did - he said the woman was at fault. Baloney. How many times does this have to be brought up. Tolerance does not extend to intolerance. He has a right to say it, but that does not mean people can't react to it. If enough people want him deported that's not intolerant, it's choosing to abhor intolerance. Seriously, are you arguing that these people are being intolerant because they don't want to hear some lunatic assclown blame women for rape? That they're being intolerant for arguing that such a sentiment goes against the moral fabric of non-thoecratic and secular justice system? Horse****.
And he's wrong... They can react to it, I don't have a problem with having a free market of ideas and having people take this guy to task and embarrass him. That's well within their rights. That's mob mentality and a classic example of 'tyranny of the majority', and that's what some far-left elements argue, that we can shout down those who voice what we deem as 'intolerant' opinions and silence them for the good of society. That's secular fascism, I don't subscribe to that. Yes, I am. Part of living in a free society includes hearing/being exposed to unpopular opinions. Enforcing monolithic values/opinions contradicts the right to freedom of expression/speech and infringes on the rights of minorities, whomever they may be. I do believe that in a healthy and truly 'free' society offensive speech is protected, as long as it's not government-sponsored. Obviously, there are many that believe in censoring offensive speech and who will disagree with me, then so be it. That's just my opinion. They can argue all they want about how such sentiment goes against the moral fabric of a non-theocratic and secular justice system, they can go and demonstrate in front of his mosque or boo the heck out of him. But calling for the deportation of anyone who is known to hold unpopular opinions or doesn't conform to the 'secular values' of that society is not only intolerant, but a classic example of secular fascism.
The people who have these kinds of views toward women are suppose to be uneducated or rural people - not spiritual leaders. It's sad. So it appears that many Muslim women leaders, and Muslims leaders on the whole have condemned what this man is saying....and some women Muslim leaders declared that he was encourging rape and should be deported. Well, I think deporting the guy is extreme, but in an interview today he said that he was completely misunderstood and that he was sorry for that misunderstanding....saying one thing in Arabic and the other in English isn't great, but I guess he realizes what a mess he has created. And he's representing Islam very poorly at a time when it needs to be represented well. Of course, if the Pope can apologize for not what he said but for "being misunderstood", I guess the scorecard is even.
You make it seem like I advocate the removal of this man's tongue. Not true, as I already said, he has the right to say it. But don't be surprised when people react to it. No they can't just deport him for that. But they can make his life a living hell until he deports himself though. I'm not sure how you got that out of my post. Agreed. I guess I should amend my previous statement:
A lot of so-called spiritual leaders are 'uneducated' in the sense that they weren't exposed to much else outside of their religious education, and a lot of them are from rural areas. But isn't the Pope believed to be 'infallible' -- at least in theory? May be that's why the Pope can't outright say "I am sorry", that his post doesn't allow him to do so. I am not sure if that's accurate, but I did hear that explanation from some circles... Oh, and btw, most sermons I have been to here in the States are provided in both English and Arabic/Urdu/Farsi or some other native language, and in some cases ONLY in English (especially true with the smaller mosques).
I am all for that, I must've misunderstood what you were trying to say, then, and for that I apologize.
Well, all spiritual leaders are suppose to be infalliable - and I bet they think the are - which is why it's so hard for them to apologize for their mistakes. Whether your a pope or an imam. Maybe religion makes one intolerant. This guy gave his sermon in Arabic or some similar tongue and said some things that weren't meant for non-muslim ears....and boom. It blew up in his face and he has to play double-face. So I think there is an issue - does he always say one thing to his constituents and another to non-believers to placate them? Again, I think the problem is more cultural then it is one of religion. There are plenty of Muslims who don't see women that way and don't force women into subjagation, and as you pointed out, there are plenty of misogynistic men in the western world. But many muslim countries are lagging behind in woman's rights and modern humanistic thinking... A poster hear spoke about an antiquated Islamic world with modern weapons. And yeah, that's not a stable formula for the world. I think it's time the world puts greater focus on industrialization and/or modernization of what's left of the "third" world. It seems that the culture will naturally begin to change to adjust towards that....
That isn't true of many religions that I know of. Usually only the deity is and perhaps the very top person. In Christianity it is a given that they are human and most definitely are not without fault.
That may be true in theory, but in practice, people of great power rarely apologize. There's a consequence in power of making an apology and appearing weak in front of those you lead. Or rather - a fear on how you will viewed going forward. The Pope, the Dali Lamai, Imams, Rabbi's...you just don't hear them say "I'm sorry" to the public very often....if at all.
Well, that's simply not true. The idea of a human being being 'infallible' is nonexistent in mainstream Islam. Even the Prophet was not 'infallible', therefore no human being is above making a mistake from an Islamic point of view. Intolerant people exist in every walk of life, and they do exist among the non-religious as well. If that's the case, then he might be unfit for his position at that particular mosque. Women rights have been an issue since the dawn of time. And yes, you're quiet right that women's rights are lagging behind in much of the developing world, including many of the Muslim-majority states.
So the critical question in improving ties between the west and Islamic worlds comes to how can we narrow the gap in modernization between the two countries? Of course, the Imams will be against this if it is a threat to their power, and many have already said they do not want "westernization" of their country. But I think more in terms of education and employment...as opposed to being able to drink coke and watch Baywatch as modernization. Forget about democracy....how do we close the cultural gaps...which are not specific to Islam but to countries that have not undergone industrialization? Egypt may actually be the best candidate to become a modern Islamic state. Iraq's hopes were dashed by the war....but it's clear now that Saddam's secular nation was at the price of tyranny. But focusing on building Egypt as an education and technical center - perhaps ala India - may be the way out. Certainly bringing women into the work force will shift attitudes. Perhaps we should start with our allies in the Muslim world as opposed to our enemies.
