We all used to crap our pants and steal our sister's food. Shall we still hold it against us all? And you wonder why there are those conservatives who characterize the liberal as wonting to hate this country. Your liberal guilt is killing you and making me sick. Oh, and MacBeth, the South was not an industrialized nation when they were wanting to hang on to slavery.
There are two clauses in the original Constitution dealing with slaves. They are: Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons... Northerners felt it was unfair to include slaves for Congressional representation purposes since they were property and not citizens but of course Southerners wanted slaves to count as whole persons so their states could have the largest Congressional seats possible. Thus the compromise was for a slave to be equal to 3/5 of a free person. Article 4, Section 2, Clause 3 No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due. This clause recognized the legitimacy of slavery and said that a slave remained property of his master in every part of the United States and no local or State law could say otherwise.
Dude, I didn't bring it up, I don't know how it got into this thread, I am not saying I'm pissed off about it. I'm not walking around pissed off about slavery. But you should know your history. At my High School, which BTW was a Private upper middle class mostly white HS, we covered this part of history in detail. People on this board are fairly intelligent, and they seem to know history, so I would expect them to know about the 3/5 clause.
.... and I didn't name you in the thread. I just followed you. Yours was one of many expressing a sentiment that I find irritating. As MadMax pointed up, people are using characteristics of this nation a century or more ago to lambaste the US today. That is just laughable. Son, may I call you that since you called me dude , I haven't been in a high school history class in some 32 years. A few of the details might have leaked out; I'm more concerned about America 2003 rather than America 1776 or 1863.
Point taken, I tried to avoid replying about this particular topic, but just as you find it irrating that people bring it up, I find it irritating that people forget it.
Does that mean we also ignore America 2002, 1998, 1988, 1972, 1956, etc? At what point does the past have no bearing on the present? At what point does what we do today have no bearing on the future? People bringing up the past doesn't bother me. I just want people to bring up the past when it is actually pertinent to the discussion at hand. What troubles me are the semi-violent reactions, generalizations, accusations and emotions that arise when this part of our nation's past is brought up. Anyway, I understand what you are getting at with America's misdeeds always being abused. (I am liberal and I hate Jesse Jackson.) I also agree with MadMax's response to slavery being brought up.
So I guess if some country would have come and kicked our ass because of slavery or Jim Crow you would have been alright with it??? We settled our own problems, like I said in an earlier posts on another thread, if we are going to use the justification that Saddam mistreats his own people, let them settle there's.
Huh? That's kind of a messed up analogy, considering the Saddam's people don't have any means of changing their government. In the US we had processes to amend the Constitution and change laws. That was my whole point when this started. I said democracies have much better records in human rights and invading neighbors than autocracies. Not perfect, but much better. Pretty simple. But then fatfatcow comes in and says that I'm wrong because of slavery and the way Native Americans were treated. (which doesn't mean much coming from him, since he defended the Tiannemen Square massacre and thinks China has the right to invade Taiwan).
Yeah, democracy is what ended slavery, I guess it had nothing to do with that small historical event called the Civil War.
Uh, democracy was still a big part of it. There were abolitionist movements and such. Do you think that any "freedom" movements would get anywhere in Iraq? Saddam would just murder them.
Originally posted by Mr. Clutch 1) Yes, the US has done wrong things in the past. However, the Native Americans were not American citizens, so this wasn't an oppression of their own people. Secondly, the American government pretty much acknowledges that the treatment of Native Americans was WRONG and has changed it's policies and has tried to remedy the situation. isnt it too late now that most native dont even speak their native toungue dont even know what their cultur is really about , got thier land stolen and all the wrong was done to them by the white man many years ago..... that was democracy, that was america, n were done by american . u said they are not american citizens , so what are they ? this land is suppose to belong to them not to the white immigrant from europe!!! who can say now that american wont mistake now n then change it policy n find out they are wrong later... but too late to reverse it!!!
And democracy created the Confederecy, they voted to secede, I would have to say, that is one time that democracy failed.
Let's remember that the things we are talking about might have happened in the past in the US, but they are happening now in Israel. BTW does anyone remember the excuse of Sharon about a year ago for not negotiating for peace. He wanted 10 days without violence before he would start. Like many of the myriad other temporary excuses employed by the Israelis during the past 36 years it came and went only to be replaced by a new excuse. Meanwhile settlement building and destruction of Palestinian homes continues. How can anyone who isn't biased doubt Israel's intention to hold on to most if not all of this land?
democracy doesnt solve everything like u think it does, when majority of the ppl are , of course they want to keep black slavery!! look at india , that the largest democracy popluation in the world , n look at thier standard of living ... u dunno much about tiannemen sqaure other than from bias media of ur country like cnn n such so its waste of time to tell u my point again since u dunt really care about whatever happan but to bash the chinese communist government!! taiwan is part of china when do u american get that in ur head! yes the american can go out n bully other weak country n mind others business n claim that they have the right to invade iraq n all that ****, but about the taiwan its my business as i am chinese n people in that small island is chinese too those are none of ur god damn business n we chinese obiviously will not allow the american to interfer with our internal business!
the us jsut said now taiwan face the biggest threat of missiles in the world from mainland, this us government is so hyprocrtie, it try to seperate taiwan from mainland becuz it best fit the american interest, to keep china weaker, saying mainland is a big threat in the region so they can sell more arms , instead of encourge both side to negoiate peace talk for unity , the american do nth but to sell more arms to the taiwan side try to pull taiwan away slowly . if the american really stick for their believe for demorcracy n such , forget about mainland , stop trading with us then , bring back the formal relationship with taiwan since taiwan side is democratic! i dunno why people like mr.clutch defend n love about ur country n democratic system so much why u dunt question about government for having a formal relation ship with a dictatorship communist mainland over the democratic taiwan becuz of MONEY$$$$!!!!!
I said it was wrong and it is horrible what happened, and yes it is too late. It is a black mark on America's history.
I do indeed question our relationship with China. I think our relationship should be stronger with Taiwan. The relationship with China began with Richard Nixon's trip over there. I think to an extent it was a mistake. It's not just a money relationship, it's also political and military to an extent as well. By the way, you are mad because America is helping Taiwan. And then you say we are hypocrites for not helping a democracy. Which is it?
i am mad becuz the american are helping whichever side that benefit them the most instead for the good of chinese peoples!!!
