You must be really bored today. Here's some quotes for you: “Say what you want about Elvin, but night after night, he hit the big shots,” recalls Dick Motta, his Bullets coach. “Every night you could count on 20 points, 12 rebounds and two or three blocked shots,” Bernie Bickerstaff, then a Bullets assistant, once said. “To this day, he’s the prototype power forward.” The Big E was hell to play against, and hell to play with. Anyone who knows much about the guy knows he was an ******* while he was playing. E grew up in a segregated small town in Louisiana and played with a chip on his shoulder during his career. Coach Guy Lewis gave him the break he needed, with Elvin and Don Chaney integrating the UH basketball team back when that was a huge deal, looked out for him, and after the Game of the Century at the Astrodome, Hayes was a very famous player indeed. One thing he was not, however, was Allen Iverson. Yes, he shot the ball a lot, especially his first few years in the NBA, and if you look at the teams he played on with the Rockets, it isn't hard to figure out why. The whole time he was being "Allen Iverson," in your eyes (and I don't doubt that you found the reference in a couple of articles online), E was also rebounding like a madman, leading the league twice, blocking shots like crazy, although during his first 5 seasons, they didn't keep the stat, being one of the league leaders in minutes played and missing only 9 games in 16 seasons, made the All Defensive 2nd Team twice, had those 12 All Star appearances, and that championship. I'm not sure why you're going to the trouble to make E out to be Allen Iverson, but he most assuredly was not. My mentioning him as a possibility on my list of a starting 5 is far from being "really, really odd." What is odd, in my humble opinion, is why you would go to so much trouble to defame a UH icon, a Hall of Famer, a member of the 50 Best Players in NBA History, a former league leader not only in rebounding, but also in scoring, a player in the top 5 or top 10 in numerous NBA statistical categories, and a former Rocket. Whatever floats your boat, dude.
The LeBron 07 finals appearance is impressive but is also greatly over hyped. The Cavs beat a bad Wizards and a bad Nets team and then defeated a good Pistons team in 6 to get there. LeBron could not have done that in 07 in the West. The Cavs were a two seed with 50 wins but in the west they would have been the 6th seed. Even the number 1 seeded Pistons would have been a 4 seed in the West that year. Kobe is a selfish player that has and will shoot his team out of games and championships. However, you will never see Kobe play a timid series. He's going to be aggressive. Watching LeBron in the finals in 11 and 13 really had me scratching my head sometimes.
So, the evidence for Hayes not being Iverson at PF are... 1. He got a lot of rebounds. Should note that KG and Barkley have better rebounding rates, implying that Hayes's rebounding numbers are inflated by pace and big minutes. 2. He won a championship. Should note that he actually wasn't the best player on said championship team. 3. He made an All-Defense team twice. Those three things are the difference between Elvin Hayes being Allen Iverson, and Elvin Hayes being better than Kevin Garnett. Who made 15 All-Star games, won a MVP, has been the best defensive player in the league post-Hakeem, and also won a ring. Or Charles Barkley. Or Dirk. Right. No, more like if I have to think of a inefficient chucker who had an attitude problem, Iverson is the first guy one thinks of - and heck, I can come up with 50 quotes from players talking about how awesome Iverson was if I wanted to rely on that like you did. And I'm frankly really insulted, Deckard, that you think that I can't make arguments for myself, so if you're going to claim that I can't, why don't you pull up those said articles for yourself? Because mentioning a player on my list of starting 5 implies that said player is at least top 20 and is probably top 3 at his position, and Hayes is nowhere close to this - he may have been a top 50 player in 1996, but I don't think he's one anymore. I've openly discussed on the Dish how much I love Nash, how great he is, and I think Nash is far, far superior to Hayes, and there's no way I would put Nash on my list of an all-time starting 5.
You keep bringing up Garnett. Where did I mention him? I haven't, you have, repeatedly. And you've ignored the facts I presented. I'm sorry if you can't stand that someone disagrees with your opinion, and that I am at a loss to understand why you have gone out of your way to demean Elvin Hayes, to the point that now you're saying he doesn't belong on the NBA's own Top 50 list. That is quite bizarre. Did you buy a car from one of the dealerships Hayes owns and it broke down? Seriously, I don't understand you at all. As for Iverson, there are articles mentioning Hayes and Iverson, comparing to two. I'd post the links for you, but I'm not going to. Look them up yourself. You claim to be insulted because I've defended a Houston college and NBA icon. Well, tough. Have a nice day.
Deep breadth old man, DEEEEEEEP BREADTH. It always kills me when people who have not seen 1/2 the seasons you have (me too) dismiss players from an older generation. Its as if the greatest players from an older generation suck because the video they are watching isn't as good as the HD they watch now. You can argue with them until you're blue in the face and it won't change anything. Its like the Chamberlain videos someone just put up, his athleticism was through the freaking roof and still some say he couldn't play TODAY. WHATEVER, just take a DEEP BREADTH and relax. Oh and by the way, Larry Bird is the most overrated player of all time. Dr. J in his prime would have eaten him alive.
I saw Kobe quit on the court while throwing a tantrum vs Phoenix on Game 7 in 2006. Not only did he play timid - he openly sabotaged his own team in order to prove some sort of point - that he can't be expected to do it alone. Despite - of course- chasing Shaq off in a misguided attempt to do it alone. Class move Kobe. Then again the guy has never been known for his judgment....
Thank you! Excellent advice, and you are exactly right. Arguing like I have is a waste of time, at least in this case (not everyone of a different age than we are has the mindset that I've found so irritating today, to be fair). What is perplexing to me, since you mentioned Bird, is that I hated his guts when he played. Couldn't stand the guy. Couldn't stand McHale, either. Heck, the entire Celtic team, except the great players that had retired, of course. After all, they stood between us and a title, twice! So "defending" Bird is a bit strange when I think about it. Never felt that way about Dr. J. Did anyone back then? He had that effect on me. I just wanted to watch him play any chance I got. Thanks for the post. I needed that. ;-)-
You just said he beat a good Pistons team in 6. And quite frankly, that was basically the same team that did win in 04. He dominated them. Explain to me how that is not impressive?
lol what? I said it was impressive the first time and then I restated that it was impressive in my response to your reply.
Well, I understand his pause about the 4 spot. All the best bigs were centers. Better to just have two centers in your all-time 5. Hakeem would work at 4. Or, maybe Bird or Magic could play the 4 if you wanted to spread the floor. Man, what is the DEAL with people? Magic, Big O. Best point guards ever. If you don't pick one of them, well... you're wrong. There is no universe where Chris Paul is better than either of those guys. And Nash? Good god, that's even worse. You do realize there are two ends of the floor, right? You know, that whole defense thing? Magic, Oscar >> Stockton >>>>>>>>>> Nash.
And then you have people who just lapse into good old days, like the people who go on saying Magic could have scored as much as Jordan but "didn't want to." Or that Deckard seems to be confused about the fact that some people on the 1996 list aren't there anymore, because I think there are a dozen players since then who are on that list now ( not to mention that I think Bob McAdoo and Dominique should have been on that list, but weren't). Heck, there's old players I rate more highly than most - I love Frazier, Unseld, Pettit, and Russell a lot, I don't like Baylor, Havliceck, and Hayes. Hayes was a chucker, the way I see it. He put up massive volume stats on horrifying efficiency, never led his teams anywhere as the #1 option, earned a reputation as a team-killer, and then won a ring as the #2 option behind Finals MVP Wes Unseld. Nothing Deckard has said refutes this, aside from the fact that he made some All-Defense teams. Heck, like I said, what makes Hayes better than Pau Gasol? Pau didn't put up volume stats like Hayes which resulted in less All-Star selections, but he put up very good numbers on insane efficiency, led Memphis to the playoffs year after year as the #1 option instead of the lotto, wasn't an *******, and won 2 rings as the #2 option. And I don't care about the fact that he's a Houstonian, nor do I see why Deckard brings it up short of a tinman-style rant about old Rockets or whatever. Drexler is better than Hayes, is top 5 at his position, actually is a top 50 player (top 30 in fact), is much of a Houstonian as Hayes....and yet no one even on this forum is putting him on their all-time starting lineup. And the gap between Jordan and Drexler is just as massive as the gap between Duncan and Hayes.
