One more comment. A lot of you are saying that a race that has been historically oppressed the most should have the right to use stereotypical comments and the races in the upper echelon do not have the right to get as angry as the ones on the bottom. For example, African Americans can get away with more stereotyping, but we should not stereotype them. A white person can be made fun of without consequences and they cannot say anything about anyone. .... Anyone remember about ten years ago when Isiah Thomas said this about Larry Bird? "Larry Bird is a great player. But if he would have been black, he would be just a good player." I remember there was a big uproar and Isiah apologized to the public and to Bird, who being a professional that he is said that it didn;t bother him one bit. That was not even a racist comment. It was sterotyping the fact that African Americans are better basketball players and they have their own standard. Whether you agree with that or not, it was simply Isiah's opinion. Now if a white athelete as great as Bird was got that kind of a view, can you just imagine for a second what Yao's going through? He's supposed to be studying physics and doing Kung Fu. One poster said that all the racial attention he gets is because he is breaking new grounds. Nothing compared to what Jackie Robinson went through, but anytime you break new grounds, you become a target.
Sabonis: Oops I take that back, I thought you meant Shaq as for What David S. wrote, it is common knowledge you can call it political correctness at its worst if you like. To boycott it is a bit much but to let him know the magnitude of his words in your eyes thats up to you and your community. As for the "My peoples trials are better than yours.." I didnt get any of that in what he was saying. If anything asians experience much of the same as what blacks experience in America. However I bet you cant honestly say you have never mocked the lingo that blacks have? Although you may have done it in the privacy of your home instead of on national tv...
vwz, No problem. That's one of the great things about forums such as these -- we can hash and sometimes re-hash our thought processes while at the same time gain feedback from others. I appreciate your thoughts. BTW, I think I'm right on 'principals' rather than 'principles' -- I was referring to the 'principal actors' in the situation, not 'principle' as in a 'belief'. I've really enjoyed the discussion.
Personally i don't think Shaq is a smart person. He said things that are out of the line before. I remember he said on radio having sex with Cindy Crawford or some other women and got himself in trouble and then he had to say sorry. He's just not educated when it comes to racism. That is how racism is created because people don't know what the heck they're talking about and don't realize that what they said could have an effect on others. It's the same thing with Charles Barkley...i don't think he's entertaining. He made outrageous comments just about everything he can think of. And people enjoy listening to it. It's like the Jerry Springer thing. It's outrageous but you enjoy it. Now, is it good for society? Hell no. Barkley half of the time have no idea what he's talking about. For example, he said nobody can beat Lakers last year and that the Kings have no chance...blah blah blah. Well if it weren't for the freaking refs calling everything in favor of the Lakers and making some crucial mistakes in crucial moment situation, Kings would have won a championship already. Barkley and other critics like Jack Ramsey from ESPN.com saying Kings don't have a chance against the Lakers have to eat their words just as Yao Ming make them eat their words. Some of these so called "NBA analysts" are not even funny. They're not brain enough to know everything in the NBA. So now Barkley and all those critics have lost all my credibility. I am not going to listen to them for any insight into anything they said anymore. The only reason the TNT show is popular is because of Kenny Smith and Barkley dumb ass jokes. But i wouldn't tune in to listen to Barkley analying team matchups, ect.. I don't understand why the networks people always chose to put some clowns on TV in order for it to be appropriate, like why did they have Walton on ABC now?? Walton is just another clown that have no idea what he's talking about more than half of the time while the game is being played. He said things that aren't even game related. Anyway, back to the racism thing. Personally i don't think Shaq is a racist, I just think he's just not knowledable enough. I think Shaq likes kung fu flicks as i have seen him imitating Kung Fu moves. Heck, he even call himself "Shaq Fu." So, i don't think he have anything against Asian. Only in America do racism exist. All because of money, power and jealousy and greed. Racism will always exist just as evil will always exist, you can not emliminate it completely. I also think sometimes people are reading into this racism remarks too much. There can be two interpretation into these offensive remarks. Sometimes it's not to be insulted but to be funny, yet people are taking it seriously. So, people sometimes need to look at the 2 sides before making a judgement.
"Please... You need to walk in the shoes of a black person first before you boo-hoo to us! " hehe,, dang,, what a bull**** comment.. I'm from Bosnia, been there throughout that whole war, lost a whole lot of my family there, and I dont' tell nobody,, walk in my shoes and this and that, shiet, I wouldn't want nobody to go through what I've been through.. so I really dont' like that comment..
reptile.... Charles Barkley said yesterday that this year, the Kings are going to win it. And he complimented Chris Webber. It was a nice moment. Kenny Smith...yeah nothing good about him. But the good thing is I've met both of them. Okay...DR. JACK RAMSAY is the only guy to win an NCAA Championship and an NBA Title. I think...heh. He's not stupid. I think he knows the game pretty well. Bill Walton was a great basketball player back in the day. None of them are dumb. Except for maybe TOM TOLBERT. Tim Hardaway is just an NBA player who retired and is famous. That's the only reason he's on television now. Same with Sean Elliott who retired because of his health problems after playing with San Antonio. How about Terry Porter? He's just a basketball player. It doesn't mean he can be a great coach. But now he is an assistant coach with the Sacramento Kings. Maybe he will become a great coach. I don't see how Patrick Ewing is helping the Washington Wizards. Maybe he is developing Kwame Brown. ABC and ESPN have some sort of connection. Like AOL Time Warner...they own everything! Yes...racism is terrible in the United States.
Shaq went to college; he can't be that uneducated. He's just not always with it. While I do think this is just meaningless trash talking, a line should be drawn against potentially offensive racial comments. Many years ago, when Dennis Rodman was on the Pistons, he said something like this about Larry Bird after the Pistons were eliminated by the Celtics: "He's not that good--if he were black he'd be just another 'good' player." To which Isiah Thomas then agreed with his teammate. Now this caused a huge uproar, basically because Rodman implied that Bird was white and so wasn't as "good" as a black player. It ended up that Isiah had to apologize to Bird in a press conference, but Bird thought it was no big deal. (Rodman was just a rookie, so Isiah took the heat here) Even Rodman said in his autobiography that this was one of the stupidest things he ever said in his career, and that he was a young rookie who was pissed that his team was eliminated in the playoffs, and said this in anger. And guys, this is DENNIS RODMAN, the king of stupid sayings. If even he thought that was stupid, obviously racial comments *are* offensive even if it is just trash talk.
The Sopranos lets everyone know that all Italians-Americans are gangsters, Good Times used to let everyone know that all black people lived in the ghetto , Scarface let everyone know that Latin-Americans where drug dealers, The Simpson and Bin-Laden let everyone know Arabic people are terrorist or own convenience stores. The fact is that in the media and throughout this country there are alot of false interpretations about the different cultures in the US. Do I agree? No, but somewhere in that mix we must just everyone on just being human beings. Like Dr.Dunk said, where was the part about Shaq talking ravely about Mr.Ming playing great and representing his country greatly. Where was the part about Shaq shaking Ming's hand after the game at the bus? I agree about the "cause" but I think as long as everyone keeps sports and life in perspective, its a lot easier to deal with ignorance.
Is stereotyping racism? I guess it depends on how you define racism. A lot of people's definition of racism has the element of hatred in there. That's fine with me. By this definition, Shaq, judging from his comments, is not a racist. I don't see hatred in his comments. Then again, by this definition, saying Tiger Woods prefers fried chicken isn't racist either. These things can be characterized as "stereotyping." But I think racism and stereotyping are different in degree, not in kind. And there's the difference between stereotyping and simple generalization. To me, generalization is to point out something that is generally (but not always, of course) true about an ethnic group. Stereotyping is to say that if you belong to x, you must be like y or you must not be able to z. Again, the difference is in degree, not in kind. As an Asian, I sometimes feel offended by some stereotyping while not offended in other times. It's hard to put a finger on it. I was with Yao on that fortune cookies thing: more amused than offended. I think the MSG joke is quite funny. During the Bruce Lee era, I met a lot of Americans who thought all Chinese knew Kung Fu. I found that amusing too, not offended. When someone jokes about Chinese English accent, I sometimes think it's funny. (Don't we also kind of diss Colin Pine's accent in speaking Mandarin?) But when someone make fun of the sound of my language (like what Shaq did), I feel somewhat offended. I don't really know why. And I think the tone probably has a lot to do with it too. If it is said in a derogative way, it's offensive. But if it is said in a way that is intended to be amusing, that's probably OK. I think those who dismiss the offensiveness as just nothing, and those who smell racism in everyone ethnic joke are both guilty of oversimplification. For the minorities out there, my advice is that if you can laugh at your own ethnicity first, then there is nothing left for the "outsiders" to laugh at without sounding stupid. Learn from Ming. Don't assume respect. Earn it.
Being the victim of racial slurs and descrimination, I don't make comments about people based on their race or ethnicity. I have before in my life, but abstain from such comments completely now, as it is probably my biggest pet-peeve. Nothing makes me more upset than unjust descrimination in any way, shape, or form. And that even means jokes!
By the way, I have really enjoyed sharing my opinions and reading all of yours. It just proves to me that CC.net posters are much more thoughtful, intelligent, and well rounded people who can talk about much more than sports. Thanks everyone!!
One angle that hasn't been brought up to DavidS yet is how these types of comments affect children. Being the father of a 10 month old boy, I have become acutely aware of everything within earshot/eyesight of my son. The reason for this is that I realize that these sights and sounds are what will mold him into the person he will become. Children are like sponges in being able to pick up all kinds of behavior and speech patterns, but unlike adults, they are not able to differentiate between what are good or bad behaviors. So if they see someone denegrating their culture/race, there is a good chance they will believe what that person said/did was true, thus instilling negative feelings about themselves and their culture/race. (this relates to an earlier post about a test in the 50's or 60's(?) where black children chose white dolls over black dolls). Now of course it is also the parents' job to deflect this material from their children by monitoring what they watch on TV, or making sure they aren't around others with hateful/prejudiced/racists things to say, but there is only so much a parent can do when a child is literally bombarded with this crap. To me, sitting idly by as idiots like Shaq make these kind of derogatory remarks is akin to me speaking the same words directly to my son. Instead, I will denounce these types of remarks and hope others do the same, which will in turn slowly change public opinion about what should and should not be spoken in public. Perhaps if I'm lucky, I can help change the type of crap that is spewed in this country before my son is old enough to understand how disappointing his country is. The bottom line here is if you stand idly by, you are a part of the problem. Just because it doesn't bother you, doesn't make it right or not worthy of complaint from others. The process of peaceful coexistence of so many different cultures in this country is a continuous one, and one in which people MUST speak up when slighted, or they will continue to be slighted. I was one of those idlers myself, until my son opened my eyes...
I don't know what the big deal is about Shaq. Geez, give the guy a break. I couldn't imagine him disliking Yao because he is Chinese. Spanking him on the court however, might be something different... Shaq-Fu anyone? If Shaq's racist against Chinese people, then so are the Wu-Tang Clan who also are influenced by kungfu movies etc. But we live in a world when people whine for any reason. Say goodbye free speech!
Being a multimillionaire obviously has had no effect on Shaq's iq. He's ignorant and very proud of it. But that's no real surprise since this country loves to reward ignorance. I think it's a shame that Tony Bruno and Shaquille O'Neal can make blatantly racist and stereotype comments and for the most part people accept it and I'm sure quite a few people even found the comments to be humorous. Shaq, whether he likes it or not, is supposed to be a rolemodel for lots of easily influenced children in this country and his comments set a very bad example. As for Tony Bruno, I'm sure he love it if citizens of Asian descent began calling in to his show and referring to him as a stereotypical dumb wop. I imagine it would probaly piss him off, which would be infinitely amusing.
Eitherway great discussion guys, I love the way no one called anyone else names in this thread. We learn from each other and to have mature discussions like this can only help us to better understand one another....
Originally posted by madmaxu uh....our? I'll presume you are African American. but how is calling Tiger a fried chicken lover any more demeaning to your history then calling Ming, Ching Chong kunfu fighter? And when did this become a Asian vs. African American who's been shafted by racism lately debate? Our history as in American history and no I'm not African-American but my aren't you presumptuous. Yes, it's more demeaning considering that Zoeller was an old white man making statements about a young black man who plays a sport so dominated by the good ole boy network that until recently it continued to discriminate against blacks at certain golf clubs. What's the history of black men subjugating Chinese in this country? To compare the two instances is just terrible.
