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Shaq straight up verbally assassinates Scottie Pippen.

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Mr Chuck Norris, Jul 29, 2015.

  1. macho GRANDE

    macho GRANDE Elvis, was a hero to most but................

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    You're wrong.
     
  2. DuDDleyDawsonII

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    Mase got scared for his life when Biggie and Pac got killed .Thats why he left and then became a preacher.
     
  3. macho GRANDE

    macho GRANDE Elvis, was a hero to most but................

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    You're wrong also. Mase didn't come on to the national scene until after Pac and Biggie had already been murdered.
     
  4. DuDDleyDawsonII

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    Yeah you're right about Mase coming-out after Biggie's death.He ran to Atlanta cause he feared for his life after having sex with a goon's baby-momma.That guy threatened to kill Mase and his crew.
     
  5. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    i think there are two issues here.

    One is small ball... Which wouldn't happen as often as someone like Shaq but would unquestionably still be in vogue way more than when Shaq dominated. Hate analytics all you want, but small ball reflects a more efficient style of offense if the players can do it. Can Green guard Shaq? Of course not... But defensively it was as much about Green guarding he other teams 2/3/4 as their 5. Consider Shaq is just one dude. Who would be his PF for example?

    The second issue is a more guard oriented league. Not that guards haven't always been important.

    Offensively it all comes down to increased 3 point percentages plus players who can shoot it faster, off the dribble, etc.

    Shaq's issue wouldn't be whether he could dominate offensively. It'd be whether he could play effective enough PnR defense without getting winded by the end of the game and having to hit FTs in the 4th

    He'd still be a top top player in the league... But he would be a lesser player in today's game - where rules favor the little guys more, and style has changed to a more 3 point centric offense and versatility valued defense.
     
  6. tcadriel

    tcadriel Member

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    True but you have to remember "why" the game has changed....

    The league wanted a faster game, a more guard oriented game. They didn't want the pound the ball down to the center game and have everyone stand at the 3pt line game any more, (Even though I personally loved that style). You could not longer touch the guard or give a hand check and that allowed him to drive more. Centers could no longer just back their defenders down in the paint. And defenses could now move more freely more like a zone. Before it had to be more of a man to man defense.

    I can't remember the exact rule changes but it was something like that. Imo the game was never the same. The floppy is out of control and there no more fear of guards driving to the paint. Before if they came in there they truly got a "hard" foul. The kind that made them think twice about doing it again.
     
  7. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    Shaq was at his peak after the biggest rule change you mentioned (the hand check). The Shaq 3 peat occurred after the hand check rule. I don't know if the illegal D rule change would have affected those Lakers, given they used the Triangle. I know it totally changed the Francis/Mobley iso attack of the Rockets at the time.
     
  8. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    This is actually an interesting conversation that I am actually afraid to admit to not be informed enough to do my side justice. I can say that it was a guard's league when Shaq was winning championships - Iverson, Marbury, Francis.....I mean look at the SG position now. Back in Shaq's day, your SG was a designated scorer. Now, Harden has no competition. Regardless, the reason why the league became a guard's league was the no handchecking rule, which was implemented b/f Shaq started winning championships.

    This point "Shaq's issue wouldn't be whether he could dominate offensively. It'd be whether he could play effective enough PnR defense without getting winded by the end of the game and having to hit FTs in the 4th" seems to be the strongest point. About all I can say on this is Shaq would score every time on Draymond Green, no question. Even with Shaq's defensive shortcomings, he would score on Green more often than the other team's PnR would work. I remember when we played the Lakers in '99. Externally, I wanted to show that I thought Dream could still hold his own against anybody (he actually did well offensively the first game if I remember), but it was readily apparent that Shaq could score at will on Hakeem. Back then, I had no idea why the Lakers with Shaq hadn't won championships b/f 2000. Kurt Rambis has to just be an idiot. I'd still bet on Shaq's championship Lakers these days.
     
  9. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    Admit that they both sucked bad though. PLEASE!!!!! or you lose all credibility
     
  10. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Me too, though because of the totality of the team.

    In many ways you can look at the Lakers decision in the Shaq/Kobe split. Of course, Kobe was younger with the longer career ahead of him, but Shaq was still great, right. I think 31? Still time for championships, no doubt... but they chose Kobe/the backcourt.

    I have no doubt that Shaq would score on Draymond Green at will. But I don't think the Warriors would guard Shaq with Green. They'd go "bigger" with Bogut, Green, Speights, etc. I'd bet on those Lakers still, and think pretty much everyone would... but I think it's a closer series than many might think. Iggy guards Kobe, and offensively the Warriors likely still score at will. Just the opponent would be much better than any the Warriors faced.

    All that said the Lakers three peat with Shaq came at a down point in league history, imo. If I think about the NBA from the late 70s say to today, the worst period, imo... the hardest to watch, the least efficient, whatever, was coming out of the lock-out through say 2005. A league led by the likes of AI, TMac, Jason Kidd (great PG leader but can't shoot for crap), Kobe (way way way high usage, inefficient), Baron Davis, etc. in the backcourt.

    It is interesting to consider how those teams might have fared against today's league. I think the biggest issue is how they'd perform defensively. The 2000/2001 LA Lakers were dominant, went 16-1 in the playoffs... but were only the 21st rated team defensively in the league... maybe that speaks to how dominant they were offensively and it wouldn't matter.... but maybe the rest of the league just wasn't very good overall...
     
  11. mugrakers

    mugrakers Member

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    I'm not sure why people are raking on Shaq. Am I missing something here?
     
  12. macho GRANDE

    macho GRANDE Elvis, was a hero to most but................

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    Mase was nice.
     
  13. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I think the reason why dominating centers are extinct is not the no hand check rule but the no illegal defense rule.

    The no hand check rule enhances the guard's game but it does not diminish the big man's game (other than maybe getting them more in foul trouble).

    The no illegal defense rule let teams double the low post without the ball. That's how Seattle used to cheat in defending Hakeem. That's what stopped Yao from being more dominating. That's how Shaq was frustrated later in his career.
     
  14. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    Yeah, that's a real good point. I remember us crying foul like crazy on the Sonics back then, but I actually did not understand why at the time - though I still cried foul! Haha. I never really thought to much about the double teaming of the post, but I can definitely understand that. I just remember that rule change totally changing the Rockets' offense at the time. Before the change, we'd put all the players except for Mobley or Francis on one side of the ball and Mobley/Francis on the other. The defenders basically had to guard their man out on the perimeter even if their man was no threat on the perimeter. For example, you could put Asik out on the 3 point line and he would have to be guarded as long as we weren't double teaming the ball. Now, you only guard players if they are actually a threat to make the shot. Is my understanding correct? There doesn't really seem to be a great site that explains the defensive rule differences well. I think it's important to understand them, as they totally changed the game.
     
  15. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    It's a pretty interesting discussion. When they traded Shaq, I thought they were crazy, but they basically ended up being right in the long run IMO. You bring up a good point about it being down time. I actually was quite intrigued by the Iversons and Francises of the world back then - heck, I was even impressed by Stackhouse in Detroit. Recently, I looked back at Iverson's stats from the era - man, he had a bad TS%. Not impressive at all. Even though, a lot of people make valid points that some things about those offenses were hard to watch. It was impressive to see how amazingly quick the first steps of a Mobley or Stackhouse were. I don't really get as impressed watching the stars of today, but that might just be me.

    Seems we have ended up agreeing then on the Shaq small ball debate. I do not think anyone would do small ball on Shaq.
     
  16. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    When you've heard Rakim, Mase - even 50 cent - just sound like they came off the short bus, no offense.
     
  17. macho GRANDE

    macho GRANDE Elvis, was a hero to most but................

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    Can't disagree with that. The R will do that to most. Kris Parker still can too.
     
  18. oakdogg

    oakdogg Contributing Member

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    Aha!!! KRS One!!! This is reminding me of watching Yo! MTV Raps with Fab 5 Freddy on Saturday mornings as a kid. Just a white kid from the suburbs, but that was fun to watch!

    I'll take 7 emcees, put 'em in a line........
     
  19. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    The only thing that slowed Shaq down was food and his gimpy big toe. The illegal D didn't change things much for Shaq because he you couldn't front him since he was big and mobile. Yao was hobbled by the fact he wasn't very mobile and didn't have great hands.

    I don't think people remember how dominant Shaq was in the late 90's early 2Ks or was jaded because his game wasn't very pretty and we hated him. Even though we swept the Magic, Dream couldn't even slow Shaq down during that series. Shaq also made Deke consider retirement.
     
  20. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Contributing Member

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    Yeah, the marketing of the NBA then was brilliant. And is of course still great. But I remember those slow-mo like commercials where it'd focus entirely on AI for example and you'd just be a bit memorized watching it. but it was all about the individual, and just simply wasn't that good basketball, relatively speaking.

    You'd be crazy to defend Shaq with small ball. But I don't think small ball is the "rage" as much as versatility. Teams like bigs that bring a lot of different skills, be it Tristan Thomson's defensive versatility plus crazy good offensive rebounding, or Draymond Green's defensive versatility plus ability to handle the rock and hit the occasional three.

    Shaq's a hard case to figure out. As dominant as he was, and as much as he wanted to call Pippen Robin to MJs Batman.... Shaq really never played without a dominant guard next to him... except for maybe his rookie year before the Magic got Penny - and that team was 41-41. Shaq was only 20/21, and was still really really good. Then there's his first year in LA, before Kobe got great when Van Exel and Eddie Jones were the lead guards. Again, Shaq was really really good... but it is interesting to see things like his shooting %'s being the lowest of his career those two years (again, relative... he shot 57% his first year in LA, just that was low for Shaq!).

    Anyway... the only point I was really trying to make is, Shaq's still an all-time great, but his offensive size and dominance, plus the Laker lore (where you see someone in this very thread calling Kobe a top 5 player of all time which is ludicrous) perhaps overate him.

    If you took the say top 100 players of all time, which would include the likes of Shaq, Hakeem, Pippen, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, old timers, etc., and wanted to do 20 teams of 5, I think the gap between Pippen and Shaq narrows a bit. And I think Shaq isn't picked ahead of Hakeem for example. Guys like MJ, Lebron, etc. would value Hakeem's versatility over Shaq's "dominance". I think a lot of those guys would pick Hakeem as the top center off the board, of all time. And a similar effect would likely take place for Pippen.

    But still, MJ, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, etc. would all certainly be in a tier above Pippen.

    Again.. Shaq's offensive dominance was incredible. Of course, Dream outperformed Shaq that series, so Shaq couldn't "slow down" dream either... Hakeem had a 106 defensive rating that series to Shaq's 115. And, oh by the way, a lot of that is attributed to Hakeem's 8 steals (to Shaq's 1), some of which came when guarding Shaq who just so happened to turn the ball over, over 5 times a game. But Shaq was only 22.
     
    #80 JayZ750, Aug 3, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015

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