Shaq "I'm still in the class of Hakeem and David Robinson"

aside from the fact you got the rankings wrong, who is Karen? she must've been pretty good.

 

Jordan won both DPOY and MVP in 1988.

As for ranking Centers, if you consider Duncan a center it screws everything up, IMO... Just because I think when he's finished, he'll have eclipsed Shaq (despite considerably less scoring).

How would you guys rank the centers purely based on how good of players they were in their primes, regardless of longevity or accomplishment? But just as basketball players? In other words, how would you rank the greatest centers based purely on their best seasons? Let's look at the BBS' general concensus top five centers of all time, and their best seasons:

1. Wilt: 1961-62, 50.4ppg, 25.7rpg, 2.4apg

2. Russell: 1961-62, 18.9ppg, 23.6rpg, 4.5apg

(NOTE: It should be assumed that Russell also averaged anywhere between 5-10bpg that year. Ditto for Wilt, though probably more in the range of 3-6)

3. Kareem: 1975-76, 27.7ppg, 16.9rpg, 5.0apg, 4.1bpg

4. Hakeem: 1992-93, 26.1ppg, 13.0rppg, 3.5apg, 4.1bpg, 1.8spg

5. Shaq: 1999-00 29.7ppg, 13.6rpg, 3.8apg, 3.0bpg, .574 FG%, 824 FTAs

So this leads me to the question: At their respective peaks, who was the best player? You might speculate and say Sabonis, Robinson shouldn't even be considered when you look at how badly Dream killed him in his MVP Season.

At their peaks, it's been established that Dream was slightly more dominant defensively, Shaq slightly more offensively. Just based on this though, I'd have trouble ranking them anywhere other than T-4/5 or 4a. and 4b. I'm not sure Shaq would disagree... It's him bringing Robinson into the picture that bothers me.

 

Dharocks, fine analysis. Yes Shaq and Hakeem will out the 4/5 spots, 5/4 spots, or 4a/4b spots. In my opinion I would weight the hardware (3 rings, 5 finals and counting, to 2 & 3) and probably Shaq's longevity at the top to break the statistical tie you show--but I am OK if people don't.

I don't see how Duncan screws it up. At the top of his game he neither was the offensive or defensive players Hakeem or Shaq was. I don't think he will ever hit 26PPG, 13RPG or 3BPG for ANY season when Shaq and Hakeem achived all three at one time. If you consider him a center he might wiggle Moses out of the 6 spot (but consider Malone had a 31.1PPG & 14.7RPG season--somthing Duncan will never touch). But #6 is absolutely as far as he would go, certainly not knoch out Hakeem or Shaq from the top 5. Hakeem in his prime would have been Duncan's worst nightmare, Duncan could not guard Shaq at all either in Shaq's prime.

Jonhty, right on the money as well.

Why it is this person:
http://www.gonanooks.com/artman/publish/krabung.html
You know, when that Lew Alcinder fellow went through a sex change operation and rebirth, or somthing like that.

 

Disrespectful punk is probably a little much, since really he was just expressing his opinion. I don't know...there's just so little breathing room between those top 5 or so centers, that I think it's sort of unnecessary to differentiate between them. No matter who you leave out, you will be insulting a legend.

 

This is my last post, cuz we are going back and forth to no end....even though you are clearly wrong (not in your opinion, but the majority of your facts).

Drexler and Cassell were both hurt that series...it's quite well known. I would pull up the data for you, but I can't access the Chronicle archives at this moment.

Once again, my question was how has Shaq's game improved to where he could stop Dream in 1995? He obviously was able to get his points at any time in his career, and he was scoring in the finals. I don't see the point of using the "Shaq was in his 3rd yr" excuse. When did Magic win his first ring? What about Bird? Kobe? How did Dream do in his first Finals appearance (in his second yr, where he DID NOT get swept). Get off the excuses

What about the rest of the seasons? You pick 1 SEASON to try and highlight Shaq's dominance? What about the rest of his career? He has only averaged over 3 blocks twice. Four years he was right above 2 a game (not great). One year he was below 2 a game. See the stats yourself.

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ONEASH01

You are seriously overrating Shaq's defense, and to put him anywhere near the class of Dream defensively is absurd. As another poster has stated, when has any teams offensive strategy been to attack Dream (as the Laker opponents did against Oneal with the pick and roll).

2003-04 NBA Detroit Pistons (no stars)
2002-03 NBA San Antonio Spurs (Duncan, no 2nd star)
2001-02 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Shaq & Kobe)
2000-01 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Shaq & Kobe)
1999-00 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Shaq & Kobe)
1998-99 NBA San Antonio Spurs (Twin towers)
1997-98 NBA Chicago Bulls (Jordan, Pippen & Rodman)
1996-97 NBA Chicago Bulls (Jordan, Pippen & Rodman)
1995-96 NBA Chicago Bulls (Jordan, Pippen & Rodman)
1994-95 NBA Houston Rockets (Dream & Clyde)
1993-94 NBA Houston Rockets (Dream, no 2nd star)
1992-93 NBA Chicago Bulls (Jordan & Pippen)
1991-92 NBA Chicago Bulls (Jordan & Pippen)
1990-91 NBA Chicago Bulls (Jordan & Pippen)
1989-90 NBA Detroit Pistons (Isiah & Dumars, both HOF'ers)
1988-89 NBA Detroit Pistons (Isiah & Dumars, both HOF'ers)
1987-88 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Magic, Worthy, Kareem)
1986-87 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Magic, Worthy, Kareem)
1985-86 NBA Boston Celtics (Bird, Parish, McHale)
1984-85 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Magic, Worthy, Kareem)
1983-84 NBA Boston Celtics (Bird, Parish, McHale)
1982-83 NBA Philadelphia 76ers (Moses, Doc J)
1981-82 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Magic, Kareem)
1980-81 NBA Boston Celtics (Bird, Parish, McHale)
1979-80 NBA Los Angeles Lakers (Magic, Kareem)

In the 80's, the talent was not distributed. Most of the talent was on the same 3/4 teams (hence those same teams kept winning). Yet, the theory held for the majority of the 90's too. I don't see how you can discredit it, unless you don't think the players listed above are superstars. However, every one listed above is going to the HOF and was playing at a supreme level when their team won the title. Once again, Shaq has had an all-star caliber player on his team in every season except for his rookie year. Dream has not. When Dream got help, his teams were successful.

So now that we know Cassell was hurt, a healthy Cassell would not have made that much of a difference? How did I know you would say that.

Same thing happened to us in 97. We had the best trio of superstars in the league. But our glaring weaknesses (especially PG) killed us.

Dude, when it becomes a trend for a no-star led team to win, then I will believe you. At the present time, the stars have took 22 of 25. In 97 we had the best trio and lost to a team with a great duo (guess what...a team with two stars still went to the Finals, and lost to another team with 3 stars).

What about the poor defensive seasons, where Shaq barely blocked over 2 a game? Looking at his stats, he has definately had more sub-par defensive seasons than great ones. One great season over a 13 yr span does not make you a great
defender.

Yes, Hakeem is arguably the best defensive PLAYER ever. Considering he could not be stopped offensively (similar to Shaq), could hit his freebies (unlike Shaq) and could get the ball with the game on the line (unlike Shaq), that is why he was better.

You do realize that Shaq's PPG in his 2nd and 3rd seasons were his 2nd and 3rd highest of his career?

As far as 95 vs 00, neither player would be able to stop the other. However, I know we would be able to give Dream the ball in the last seconds of a tie game.

Check the 87/88 season. Really man, start checking your facts before you post. That's like the 6th time you have been corrected on one in this thread.

 

At their prime Shaq was probably more dominant than Dream because
1) he actually played very good defense in 99-00, though not as good as Dream
2) his defensive presence was unrivalled by any player in NBA history, just so big and intimidating.
3) his offensive efficiency. Can't argue with his FG%
4) he put all opponent bigman into foul trouble, even his FT%
sucked. This was probably the best evidence of Shaq's dominance.

Shaq was just lazy. He only took a few regular seasons seriously.
With a better work ethic, Shaq might be the G.O.A.T. He's that gifted.

 

I said they were both hurting, they also both played (might want to do your own fact checking). Drexler played in every post season game and had good stats that as I showed you and you ignored (you seem to have a problem reading carefully). Of course it was speculation, but I would argue a 100% Cassell would not have won that 96 series. Cassell was an offensive spark plug at his most value when Hakeem was off the floor. But as I said, we lost games where we shot lights out. Our problem with Seattle was we could not get our high % inside game working (Dream’s) and we had trouble guarding them at multiple spots. Cassell’s strengths (never known as a defender) really help none of our key problems against them.

You say no excuses then you are full of them. You win or you lose, Sweep or no Sweep. Dream lost in his 1st finals (2nd year), Shaq did in his first finals (3rd year). So what? Would it have reflected differently on Shaq or Hakeem if Nick the Brick had not missed 4 strait clinching FTs, or had Kenny not us bailed out of game 1. Only to the small minded should those events reflect on either Shaq or Hakeem. Hakeem won round 1, Shaq lost round 1. That is the story from 95.

Further you say “no excuses’, but then you want to excuse Dream for being older when Shaq absolutely destroyed him in round 2 of the playoffs. You also certainly don’t give Shaq any credit for expanding his offensive game until 00-99, especially passing. Like Dream, whey they found out their best spots on the floor and refined their game, and learned how to best set up team mates, that was when they became offensively unstoppable. Shaq may have been close to his peak in scoring in 95 (largely due to ORB and dunks), but if you think he was the same offensive player in other respects (knowing how to score other than dunks, better understanding of the floor, better passer) you have not followed him closely or objectively.

FUNNY from a guy who earlier said this about Shaq when he had an 13.8 RPG and 3.5BPG season….

…and having the gall to CALL me out for lack of CREDIBILITY and LACK OF GETTING FACTS STRAIT.

BTW Since YOU said SHAQ “HAS NEVER been a defensive presence” I choose two seasons from Shaq, one from his prime 99-00, to show what an ABSURD comment it was. Further Hakeem IS THE ONLY guy to have seasons that eclipsed those block and rebound totals since the 1980s, and I talked about HAKEEM'S BEST TWO SEASONS to show how NOT JUST GREAT but LEGENDARY he was defensively (apples to apples).

You are about the only one left who is having troubling understanding this, I’ll try again. Hakeem is the best defender in modern basketball history. There is NO ONE in his class defensively for at least the last 30 years or so. Shaq, among a hand full of other guys like DR, Deke, Ben Wallace, Duncan and Ewing who certainly were “major defensive presences” if not “dominant defensive presences” despite “not being the best of all time” class like Hakeem. Got it?

If Hakeem could have stayed out of foul trouble and not worn down, sure he would have been better in the last 2 minutes. IF, IF, IF. In truth we don’t know. All when know is in there most comparable forms Hakeem and his team beat Shaq and his team. But we also know Shaq (something like 26PPG/13RPG) as a PUP played Dream better than the other great centers of Hakeem’s era in their primes (DR, Ewing), and if you have any objectively you would know Shaq major progressed as an offensively player especially in the half court and through set offenses. So it is no sure thing you put 99-00 Shaq versus Hakeem of 94-95 we have a duplicate of what happened in the 95 finals. And if you don’t want to allow any considerations for the fact Shaq was a PUP undeveloped in his offensive game, they I see we must bring up what happened to them their 2nd playoff meeting when Hakeem was left to his wile and refinement but not his athleticism, that then the comparison gets UGLY.

In the in end, weighting their playoff performances against each other (factoring Shaq as PUP in round 1, Hakeem as an OLD man in round 2) and their individual statistical accomplishments and accumulations (though Shaq is still counting), I think they have as close to equal case as you get. That is why I then refer to hardware to break the tie (5&3 and counting to 3&2)--that is fine if you don’t, I don’t really care how form your opinion as long as there is a sliver of cordiality OR objectivity--which you have shown neither and why I had to take you to the WOOD SHED.

Yes some reflection on your part is a good idea. Not only are a fair share of your own details and points off, but more importantly the big picture is no where close to most of your claims.

 

Yes, they played, but were not as effective due to injuries. How hard is that to understand? To give you a more recent reference, Cassell played hurt in the WCF last year, but he was not himself and the Wolves lost.

You win and you lose WITH HELP. Basketball is a team sport, and every great player needs help to win (even if you have the best player in the league). Shaq played with a lot of help for the majority of the career (somethign you keep choosing to ignore). Dream did not. That is why I don't put as much weight into your "Shaq is better because he won more" argument. That is your opinion (that more titles) makes him better. Considering the amount of help he had on every team, it does not make him better in my eyes. Hell, Horry has 5 rings.

Shaq has never been unstoppable. You can easily stop him by sending him to the line, which is why he needs a second star (Penny, Kobe, Wade) to be successful. At the end of the game (assuming it's tied in the last minute), he becomes a liability offesnively (his biggest strength). DREAM DOES NOT. As far as Shaq's numbers go, he was already averaging 29 ppg when he met Dream in the finals. He still got dusted. Yes, his offensive game has expanded (a little) and his passing has improved some, but nothing about his game has changed defensively to allow him to contain Dream in his prime. If anything, he has gotten bigger and slower since the 95 matchup.

Once again, looking at his career (as I pointed out), Shaq has had more sub-par defensive seasons that good ones. The season you pulled was from his second yr. He still could not contain Dream the next season. If you take Shaq from his second yr, he still would not be able to stop a pick and roll set. Teams would still make him the focal point of attack (something that was never done with Dream). Do you actually watch the games, as opposed to just looking at numbers?

Yes, and I was not the only one to do it. You incorrectly stated finals trips for both players more than one time in this thread (after being corrected on it).

How can you be a great defensive presence when the opposing teams offensive game-plan is designed to attack you (i.e. the pick and roll for Shaq). Please explain that? Once again, I actually watch the games. If Shaq was a great defensive presence in his sophomore yr, why did Dream destroy him the following year? Wouldn't a great defender have more great defensive season than sub-par ones?

Yes, I got it. Shaq is NO WHERE in Dream's class on D. He has a slight advantage on offense. As far as the intangibles (ability to hit freebies, expanded offensive game, ability to take game winnins shots, won without a 2nd star), Dream has the advantage. Thats why I say Dream is better. How hard is that to get. Shaq has 1 advantage, and it is slight, as no one could stop Dream in his prime either.

How did Shaq play Dream better when his team got swept and the Spurs (Robinson) got 2 wins, and the Knicks (Ewing) got 3? Isn't your entire argument based on winning? Once again, what has changed about Shaq's game that would allow him to slow Dream down offensively? NOTHING!! If they played that season again at their best, neither player would be able to contain the other (similar to 1995), but I would still rather have Dream as he is not a liability at the end of games, and a better defender. I know Dream can win wings over the best at his position (Robinson, Ewing and Shaq). I don't know if Shaq can.

 

You seem to say basketball was a team sport yet you blame Shaq for getting swept when the whole thing was set in motion in game 1 when his teammate missed an unprecedented 4 strait FT and Hakeem’s teammate hit the tying 3 to put the game in OT. Yes Hakeem was better than Shaq in the 1995 series, thankfully for us Rocket fans, but Hakeem’s man (Shaq) still put up like 26 or 27 & 13 or 14, and for sure put his team in position to win some games. Given how close that 93-94 series was I am glad is was Ewing who was playing center on that Knick team and not Shaq. Any center a little better than Ewing and we don’t win that series.

1) Hack a Shaq can only be tried IF the game is close, 2) Hack a Shaq hasn’t worked in the playoffs even when the games are close. It is hard to make up ground (especially in the playoffs when team D rules) when your opponent’s are scoring at a 53% clip, even if it sucks for FTs. Plus he is so strong a fair number of times he may finish and go to the line when you try to foul him. Wilt shot FTs even poorer than Shaq and Russell was marginally better, yet those guys have a lot of rings and accolades too.

 

No one is saying it is all Shaq's fault. However, if you watched the finals, you will note that Dream stepped up in crucial moments. He hit the game winning shot in that first game (over who)? Where was Shaq when his team was blowing a 20 point lead? Once again, it is not all Shaq's fault...but he has been swept more than the normal superstar, and his teams ALWAYS had help.

Hack-a-Shaq doesn't work because he has always had another top tier talent on his team (specifically a swingman who can take over at the end...it's no coincidence that he won with his best one). Put him on some of the teams that Dream was on (where there is NO OTHER option), and you will have a different story.

Once again, how has Shaq's game grown defensively, which would allow him to stop Olajuwon? My guess is that both players would still get their points, but I would still take Dream because of the intangibles.

 

I haven't read most of this thread but I thought I should post this.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/3368384

O'Neal was traded less than a week after Tomjanovich was hired. Because of their friendship, O'Neal called Tomjanovich before he got the Lakers' job and told him he wasn't coming back, no matter what.

"You respect a coach that's done well with other big men, one of the greatest big men in my eyes, so I always had a lot of respect for him," O'Neal said. "I know he's a big man's type of coach."

O'Neal referred to former Rockets star Hakeem Olajuwon, who led the Rockets to a four-game sweep over O'Neal and the Orlando Magic in the 1995 NBA Finals.

 

Shaq's ego is bigger than his ass, Hakeem would kill Shaq 1 on 1.

 

I would beg to differ if you remember the Minnesotta series. You can foul a guy anywhere until the 2:00 minute mark if I remember. No one has made significant milage out of that on Shaq. In playoff basketball where the best defenses are usually left, it is very hard to catch up if the opponents are converting at a 50+ rate. Shaq's FT% suck for FT%, but it isn't bad for an offensive conversion rate in late playoff series. And that is IF you can foul him without him powering to the bucket anyway--and if you ask NBA players they will tell you it is hard to stop him from getting to the rim even with fouling.

I am not saying he could stop Hakeem. No one can stop a great offensive player. Hakeem certainly didn't stop Shaq when he was a PUP and no game outside of 6 feet (Shaq scored 26-27PPG). Hakeem, the best defender of modern times, didn't shut down DR or Ewing either (Russell was the best pre-Hakeem times, and came no where close to stopping Wilt either). What Hakeem did do between 93-95 was do is far more damage to DR and Ewing on the offense end than they did to him (and actually Shaq as a PUP faired better than those two HoF centers in their prime). Hakeem certainly would have put a lot more energy (and fouls) in defending the Shaq of 99-00 than the Shaq of 94-95, hard to conceive that wouldn't impact his own offensive game. Again, who would have had more total impact between Shaq of 99-00 and Hakeem of 94-95 is really hard to say but it is not a slam dunk easy call.