Shaq "I'm still in the class of Hakeem and David Robinson"

The day Sabonis plays defense will be the 1st

So . . take him out of this

Duncan is a PF .. . bye bye
he is a PF because he REFUSEs to play center

Shaq's offense is more dominating
but
not as diverse

Shaq's defense is not even in the same building

Hakeem's Offense similar if not equal to Shaq
Hakeem's Defense is much > Shaq's

Rocket River

 

I agree that Hakeem is better than Shaq, but the Rockets didn't beat a team with 2 superstars in the 94' Finals so you really can't use that argument for that season.

 

You are right--I forgot the most recent visit, Shaq has been to 5 NBA championships, Hakeem has been to two. That just further's Shaq's case, sorry. 3 rings and 5 visits to 2 and 2,

Some might say well, Dream played at the time the best player of the last 30 years played (Jordan), but Jordan was in the other league. Thus again, Jordan is mostly irrelevant to this debate. In fact if anything it works against Shaq. We know Jordan's team prevented Shaq's team from 1 NBA visit, we know Shaq's team defeated Jordan 1 time in the playoffs. As for Hakeem's team versus Jordan's in the playoffs, it is quite a shame but it is all speculation because Hakeem never even got his team to the finals save 94 & 95. I think we would have beat the Bulls in 94 and 95 even with a ready Jordan (assuming Horace left and other FA factors), I think we might have beat them in 96 or 97, but Hakeem let Seattle and then Utah beat him despite other Hall of Famers on his team.

Faulty argument blown out of the water with Detriot winning last year with no All-NBA type player. So now Ben Wallace is superior to Shaq because he was a center on a team with no Hall of Fame or NBA-all star type teammate.

And again, what about Hakeem not getting to even the finals with multiple HoFamers around post 95?

Further, quite honestly, Hakeem had a lot more around him in 93-94 with Thorpe, Horry, Max, Smith, Cassell, Elie, and Herrera than TD did in 99. At the time Parker was a rook who had to be pulled in the key moments of the finals because of his incompetence in runnign the team and DR mixed in a few games around his time at the senior citizens back rehab ward. Of course the 93-94 Rockets team would have smoked the 99 Spurs team (not only was Hakeem superior to Duncan, the rest of the team was better and deeper too), but that is a different debate.

Ya'll keep on mentioniung Shaq getting swept. It took 4 strait missed FTs from Nick the Brick and a clutch 3 from Kenny for that to happen. And what about Hakeem letting Seattle sweep the Rockets? You put Shaq in there instead of Hakeem do the Rockets still get swept? (I don't think so because I think Shaq would have been able to maintain his position with his wide body like Barkley did versus Seattle and not been made ineffective like Hakeem was). Of course my speculation.

BTW on Shaq's block on Mobley he came off his man and across the lane to make a great play. Legendary the way Hakeem tracked down KJ or the Starks block, no. But then I have never seen anyone else the size or bigger than Hakeem make Hakeem kinda of plays either--this includes not only Shaq but Robinson, Ben Wallace, Mutumbo, and any other great defensive centers I can think of over the last 30 years. But to say Shaq wasn't a major defensive presence in his prime and didn't make some great defensive plays (which is what some were insinuating) was absurd.

All we really know for sure is Hakeem has 2 visits and 2 titles, Shaq has FIVE and 3 (and counting). The statistics do look close if you end there careers at 13 years, but Hakeem in his 13 year was not as dominant as Shaq is now. I expect Shaq be more a presence longer.

I'd love to be able to say Hakeem was a greater player because that would mean Hakeem had more NBA titles, showdowns with the Bulls, etc, then we actually got. As glorious as 94 and 95 were, the story before 94 and after 95 just ins't there, ya'll can keep sticking your head in the sand (or maybe your head with your heart), but I try to seperate reality from what I wish had happened.

 

In the end, I think Shaq will get the "higher ranking", and that's what aggravates people here.

But, if you think about the description each will have in the Hall, or among knowledgeable fans and centers who play the game, it will likely be:

Shaq redefined the position by bringing so much power to the game.
Hakeem redefined the position by bringing so much grace to the game.

Neither is bad. The same sort of thing is said about Bill vs. Wilt.

I'm sure the competitive nature of each of these players means that each would feel slighted by not being #1 in some ranking... but for fans, sometimes, just accept the situation and enjoy the ride.

 

It's very hard to consider your arguments when you can not get your facts straight. This is the THIRD time in the SAME thread that someone is correcting your so called "for sure" facts. Go back and check again as to how many times Hakeem has been to the finals.

 

at the end of the day. the thing is hakeem probably doesn't mind being more low key. and thats why we love him.

 

Has not Shaq has been to 5 NBA finals (I had forgotten 1 visit in my earlier threads and corrected myself), and does he not have 3 rings. Unless my memory is really decieving me, Hakeem has been to two, winning two. What part am I missing zboy?

But I see when you can't take on the crux of the argument and fairly objective case it is nice to seek somewhere else to deflect the debate.

 

Hakeem went to three Finals. He went to one his second season, just like Shaq.

 

Oh, he was a good defender alright. Ask Jack Twyman, a HOF forward who played Oscar one-on-one when he was in the NBA and Oscar was a college freshman (they both played most of their college and pro ball in Cincinnati). The score? Oscar wins, 21-0. Or you can ask Bill Bradley, a HOF forward for the Knicks, who'll tell you that the first time Oscar guarded him was the worst offensive game he played in years.

I dunno though... when I think complete player Pippen is kinda the first one who comes to mind. He was a better passer and rebounder than Jordan, and he was a little more consistent with his threes. I'd also say he's the more dominant defender. He couldn't create a shot quite like Jordan, true, but if you're talking complete player Pippen just has to be way, way up there.

Dude, Cowens was pretty badass. He was absolutely one of the best defensive players of the 70s. But yeah, he didn't have the same "O" a lot of these other guys had, though he was still good. He was a great, great passer from the center spot. Maybe he doesn't belong in the discussion with Pippen, Robertson, and Jordan. However, if you're talking complete big men, you gotta talk Cowens.

 

and i try to acknowledge the reality of hakeem taking a team to the finals in his 2nd year and then the next time he finally had talent around him ripping off 2 titles and adding a WCF appearance in their before he finally broke down. give hakeem penny, kobe, and wade and i see more than 3 (or is it 2) finals appearances. but keep pretending no external factors matter at all.

 

Oh, yeah, the Hakeem, Sampson, Lucas, Wiggons, runner up team to Boston. No one is pretending the rest of the teamates don't matter but people are seriously underestimating the contributions of Hakeem's compadres in 94 and 95. Sounds like people don't remember how good Sampson was for a brief spell either (or how strong Hakeem's guards were before the drug suspensions took them)--it certainly wasn't all Hakeem.

So 2 (titles) and 3 (visits) for Hakeem (versus 3 & 5 for Shaq and counting). The rest of the arguments stand.

 

They only beat the Jazz (Stockton & Malone) and the Suns (KJ and Barkley) to get there. And considering that what Dream did (winning without a 2nd star) has only happened 3 times since 1980, I don't see how you can say that argument isn't valid.

Why do you keep forgetting to mention the help Shaq had during his career, compared to the help Dream had?

Yes, Detroit won. That was what, the 3rd time in 25 years that it has been done? What team did they beat? What center got outhustled during the entire series? Hakeem is superior because you could not stop him on offense (similar to Shaq), and he dominated defensively (Shaq does not). Ben Wallace is not in that category.

When Hakeem was past his prime and played with a past his prime Barkley and Drexler, they only lost to the Jazz, who also had two HOF players. What about Shaq getting swept out of the playoffs every year until he won in LA? None of his teams were ever without talent.

But could Shaq have won with that team?

Have you even checked Dream's numbers against the Sonics? Sure he got swept, but it's not like he got swept EVERY YEAR (see Shaq).

I think it's absurd to say Shaq is a major defensive presence and has mad major defensive plays (can ya name more than 1)? He couldn't even stop the first center to challenge him in years (Yao). What quality center has he ever contained?

Once again, keep ignoring help.

I guess Horry is better as he has 5 rings.

The rest of the argument does not stand because you keep discrediting help. Here, try reading this again...

 

AHHHHHHHHHH..........HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!

I don't think I can ever take one of your posts serious. EVER again. Man, that is just ridiculous!

THanks for the laugh. sheepy

 

I'm pretty sure he means the young Sabonis who only played in the international leagues, not the broken-down ogre that finally decided to come to the NBA, in which case you really shouldn't laugh.

 

so you think young sabonis was better than hakeem?

 

Remember that time in 1995 when Hakeem and the Rockets kicked the holy **** out of Shaq's team in the finals? Man, that was so awesome.

 

My point is that it is a reasonable position to hold (certainly not laughable). I don't necessarily agree or disagree. Haven't thought enough about it to really take up either side... pretty close call.

 

does anyone have clips of old sabonis? i would think not. i'd kinda like to see it but at this point all we ever have to go on sabonis is hearsay. i'm sure he tore up europe but this was europe before they caught up. anyway, without anyone seeing him, i find it hard to put him up there with the greats.

 

Consider that when in the NBA he proved to be one of the best, if not THE best passing center of all time, right up there with Walton. Then consider he had a complete post game and could hit the three consistently. Take that stuff, and then make him younger, when he was considered bizarrely athletic for a big man (he was considered a top shot blocker and dominant rebounder, and he ran the floor). I mean, the guy was already a good rebounder when he couldn't jump at all. And through all this let's not forget he was freakin' 7'3.

No, there will never be concrete stats to be able to measure him against other players. But I have a really, really hard time believing he wouldn't have been a top 10 all-time center had he played here when he could still jump (and run) at all.

 

I still wouldn't take him over Dream as Dream was a stud on defense as well.