Shaq "I'm still in the class of Hakeem and David Robinson"

I am not saying that Shaq is one dimensional. However, it's silly to say he is a notch above Hakeem when Dream could dominate both ends and Shaq could not. If it's my choice, I will take the guy that can make it happen on both ends.

BTW, it's a little easier to be an intimidating presence when 90% of the centers you guard have no offensive game. It's also easier to conserve energy to dominate offensively as well. There is a big difference from guarding Ewing, Robinson and Shaq in the playoffs (while leading your team in scoring, boards and blocks), compared to guarding Todd M and Mutombo.

 

If only they could have decided this on the court.

No, not the NBA Finals. I'm talking about the Taco Bell one-on-one challenge.

 

Are you guys honestly saying Wade is better than Drexler, who Hakeem had for his 94-95 run. If so have have a very shallow memory of Drexler. In fact Kobe probably did not surpass Drexler as a complete player until Shaq's 2nd or 3rd championship.

If Shaq leads that Miami team to the playoffs it is his credit. Hakeem had no all-star in 93-94, but take away Hakeem and Shaq and Hakeem's team is (much) better in every other starting spot save the 2 guard (and Mad Max in his prime could have guarded Wade as well as anyone) and had a much better bench (Cassell, Elie, Herrara). Hakeem was fantastic in 93-94, no doubt, but he was fantastic many years before too where he went nowhere. The difference was in 93-94 the Rockets finally had great role players around Hakeem and jelled as team, the rest of the other guys were better than credited.

Shaq has been to 4 championships (and counting), winning 3 of them. Hakeem has been to two, and won two. I don't see how Jordan relevant to the debate, Jordan was never an obstacle to Hakeem in the playoffs and even with Jordan in the other league Hakeem only got his team to the finals twice. 3-2 in rings and playoff MVPs, 4-2 in finals reached, and only Shaq has an oppertunnity to further improve upon his record. Based on results any fair minded perhaps has to have Shaq a nod ahead.

And yes if you asked Dream in 95, despite Orlando being swept, Shaq was tougher than DR or Ewing. Shaq was not the reason they got swept. Start with Nick the Brick. Remember Seattle swept Dream but I wouldn't say Ervin Johnson or Michael Cage or whomever they had playing C was the reason.

Finally, somone mentioned the defensive play of Hakeem on Starks. Do they forget Shaq's block on Mobley on the way of the Lakers sweeping Hakeem's team (and Shaq abused Hakeem that series worse than Hakeem had ever been abused)? While I won't say Shaq was th equal to Hakeem defensively as either Hakeem (probably) or Russell (possibly) were the best defensive players to ever play, Shaq was still a major defensive presence on the Lakers title teams.

 

Here's my 2 cents as a non-Rocket fan. For 2-3 years of his absolute peak, Hakeem was as good or better than anyone who ever played the game.

For me, he gets knocked down a bit because of the longevity of that peak. Maybe I'm being unfair, but I felt that he lost a lot of the hunger after that second championship. In 96, he should have been burning with fury when everyone proclaimed Jordan the MVP and his Bulls the champs half way through the season. Instead, his team is swept. In 97, he had a golden opportunity to get back to the finals but fell just a couple games short. That was his chance to make a case for being the best of all time. Instead, he seemed content with what he had already accomplished.

Shaq's career seems to be on a similar trajectory. 2-3 years of absolute dominance and a lock on the NBA finals MVP followed by a slow decline. Shaq also lost some of that hunger and seemed to go through the motions the past couple years. His humilating exit from LA may have fired him up. We'll see. Shaq's always been a good talker.

 

Yep, hard to take anyone's argument seriously when they don't even know how many NBA Finals Dream led the Rockets to.

 

hell he didn't even know how many his boy shaq went to.

 

And he's already made the same mistake earlier in this thread, and been corrected, and still gets it wrong.

 

Of the teams led by superstars, what is the rule about championships?

Anyone?

Anyone?

You need two certified stars to win it all.

Who is the exception to the rule?

Dream in '94. Shaq in....never.

Thank you.

 

Shaq can only wish he was in the same league as Dream. In his prime, Hakeem made Shaq look like a stationary object.

 

Didnt the Rockets have the best record by a LONG way over the Bull's while Jordan played there?

 

No, we are not saying Wade is better than Drexler. We are simply pointing out that Shaq has had an All-Star perimiter player on every Finals team. He has had an All-Star perimiter player 80% of his career. Dream played with scrubs for the majority of his career. You choose to use titles and MVP's as a sign of Shaq's ranking over Dream, but discredit the fact that Shaq played with help for the majority of his career, or that Dream is one of the few players to win a title without a second star. It's like saying Montana is definately better than Marino, and discounting the impact of Jerry Rice.

Are you trying to say today's heat team would win in 1994?

I am glad we both agree that Hakeem's teammates sucked prior to the early 90's. Kinda explains why his teams went no where (except for the playoffs EVERY season).

Shaq to 4, and Dream to 2? Are ya serious?

Got any support for that? How can the team's main man not be the reason they got swept when the guy that got the MVP was his match-up?

Oh, you mean when Mobley (the rookie) drove into the paint and challenged Shaq? Yeah, that's comparable to a center switching off his man, running to a guard and blocking his jumper.

Yeah, Shaq is better because he dusted a past his prime Dream. Kobe is better than MJ because he dogged him when he hit 40. Kareem can't hold Dream's jock because he dusted him in 86.

Ya ever think Shaq was a major defensive presence on a title team because there were no other centers to challenge him? Was he a major defensive presence when the Spurs went through them twice?

 

What crack pipe? I wouldn't take Hakeem over them but Hakeem is on their level.

 

DS:


first, i'm not sure why you say shaq has the stats advantage. shaq is in his 13th season and is averaging:

26.9 PTS 12.0 REB 2.6 BLK 0.7 STL 2.8 AST 57.9 FG% 53.3 FT%

hakeem through 13 seasons (96-97):

24.2 PTS 12.0 REB 3.4 BLK 1.85 STL 2.7 AST 51.6 FG% 71.6 FT%

so we have a dead heat in rebounds and assists, a big advantage for shaq in points, a big advantage in blocks for hakeem, and a huge advantage in steals for hakeem. shaq gets big FG and hakeem gets big FT advantage. so i'm not seeing the clear stat difference you apparently see. and i don't even know where to look up stats at a certain point so i had to subtract all those years manually with my calculator, too much work for one post.

shaq was better at offense. hakeem was much better at D. i tend to place a little more emphasis (when it comes to stars) on O so i think it evens out a little and makes it either hakeem with the edge or a tie. i still can't give shaq the lead w/o being a 4th quarter player (especially considering late play by stars in bball is more influential on the outcome than in any other sport outside of the qb in football) or ever doing it w/o an awesome perimeter player by his side.


edit: and with regard to nick anderson or the starks buzzer beater being close to beating us, if portland doesn't go through an 0-13 stretch in game 7 does LA win? if horry doesn't get that miracle 3 against sactown do they win? if the refs don't just hand the lakers game 6 over the kings, do they win? the lakers only cruised in '01.

 

as for complete player, i can't put magic (as amazing as he was, especially playing all 5 positions at one point) and bird with hakeem b/c they weren't dominant defenders the way hakeem was (or even jordan was). hakeem had a power post game, an outside/face up game with great moves on offense, had a good fg and ft %, closed off the inside with blocks, got steals, guarded his own man, and was a very good rebounder. if hakeem has a weakness, i would say his passing, but he wasn't bad for a center (though he's no walton obviously).

jordan was an amazing scorer, good passer, good rebounder for his position, had a great perimeter/driving game and a great post up game. he could guard his own man, got lots of steals, and got quite a few blocks for his position as well. i guess his weakness would be 3 pt shooting but again he wasn't that bad in his older years.

oscar obviously was the triple double man, but still was he awesome on defense? i mean, i realize no one played defense back then, but maybe he was one of the better ones. so i'll just plead the 5th since i don't know if he was regarded as a good defender (did they have all-nba defense teams back then in the land of no defense?).


i suppose pippen would be way up there because there was little he couldn't do. i did say not necessarily the best, only completest, but i still have to hold the fact he wasn't a dominant offensive player (certainly not up there with anyone i just mentioned) somewhat against him compared to the others. as for cowens, i know he had the all 5 stats team leading thing but still, cowens doesn't belong with these others in this discussions. so make it the most complete player who was also a badass discussion.

 

i didn't read the whole thread but Shaq is WRONG about one thing:

I'm still in the class of Hakeem and David Robinson

Shaq has never had their "class". Maybe their abilities but never their "class"

 

It's simple: in regards to dominating a basketball contest, imposiing individual will to win, defense schematics, offensive prowess, championship appearances, MVPs and NBA titles, it's very simple IMHO; Shaq and Hakeem are equals.

In fact, my choices for the top six centers are these, and in no particular order:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'Neal
Moses Malone

THE ELITE SIX, THE BIGSIX

Titles
Hakeem = 2
Chamberlain = 2
Bill Russell = 2
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 6
Shaquille O'Neal = 3
Moses Malone = 1

Magnificent players, all having made magntudinous accomplishments.

There are other obviously many other great centers in the history of the NBA (e.g. David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld), notwithstanding the aforementioned Big Six are the super elites, IMHO.

I believe Shaq has faced one frontline player who was his equal IMO; Tim Duncan ('99. '01, '02, '03, '04).

Regarding Jordan's first retirement, I am confident that the Houston Rockets of '94 and '95 would have completely demolished the Bulls. Jordan admitted that the Rockets were the one team he did not want to face and with good reason, for the most part during the nineties, the Rockets decimated the Bulls, even during one of the Bulls great dominating runs of '92. As many posters have mentioned, Mad Max gave Jordan fits. Kenny Smith/Sam Cassell would counteract the backcourt of Paxson/Armstrong.

Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen would be equally matched by Horry/OT/Elie. In hypothetical that the Drexler trade is still made, Drexler wouldn't necessarily obliterate Jordan on defense, but the talent of those ultra-powerful dynamos would cancel each other out. Of course, Bill Carthwright/Scott Williams/Stacey King would be abolished by Hakeem "the Dream" Olajuwon.

Hypothetical matchups: '94 Rockets win Series 4-1


In '96, '97, '98, the Bulls would present more of a challenge

 

It's simple: in regards to dominating a basketball contest, imposiing individual will to win, defense schematics, offensive prowess, championship appearances, MVPs and NBA titles, it's very simple IMHO; Shaq and Hakeem are equals.

In fact, my choices for the top six centers are these, and in no particular order:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Shaquille O'Neal
Moses Malone

THE ELITE SIX, THE BIG SIX

Titles
Hakeem = 2
Chamberlain = 2
Bill Russell = 2
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 6
Shaquille O'Neal = 3
Moses Malone = 1

Magnificent players, all having made magntudinous accomplishments.

There are other obviously many other great centers in the history of the NBA (e.g. David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld), notwithstanding the aforementioned Big Six are the super elites, IMHO.

I believe Shaq has faced one frontline player who was his equal IMO; Tim Duncan ('99. '01, '02, '03, '04).

Regarding Jordan's first retirement, I am confident that the Houston Rockets of '94 and '95 would have completely demolished the Bulls. Jordan admitted that the Rockets were the one team he did not want to face and with good reason, for the most part during the nineties, the Rockets decimated the Bulls, even during one of the Bulls great dominating runs of '92. As many posters have mentioned, Mad Max gave Jordan fits. Kenny Smith/Sam Cassell would counteract the backcourt of Paxson/Armstrong.

Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen would be equally matched by Horry/OT/Elie. In hypothetical that the Drexler trade is still made, Drexler wouldn't necessarily obliterate Jordan on defense, but the talent of those ultra-powerful dynamos would cancel each other out. Of course, Bill Carthwright/Scott Williams/Stacey King would be abolished by Hakeem "the Dream" Olajuwon.

Hypothetical matchups: '94 Rockets Win Series 4-1
'95 Rockets Win Series 4-0
'96 Rockets Win Series 4-3
'97 Bulls Win Series 4-3
'98 Rockets Win Series 4-2

Ultimately what got in the way of the Rockets in '96 - '98 were the Seattle Supersonics/Utah Jazz. Both teams presented matchup problems for the Rockets as the Rockets did for the Bulls. Seattle's mockup zone defenses, the guard play of Gary Payton and the frontline power of then-superstar Shawn Kemp kept the Rockets from pummeling the Bulls as they should have. In '97, the tiring series with the Seattle Supersonics, Barkley's over-reverence of the Jazz, the uncohesive play of the team, and the Rockets, as well as some unreferred calls prevented the Rockets from reaching the finals and destroying the Bulls. In '98, Barkley finally regarded the Jazz as mortals, but his injury was a crushing blow to their chances of extinguishing the Jazz.

Ultimately, the Sonics and Jazz would have been better off staying home. The Jazz always fold in the playoffs and the Sonics simply didn't match up will the Bulls as well as Rockets did.

This is all hypothetical obviously, but the whole point is that Shaq/Wilt/Hakeem/Moses Malone/Kareem/ Bill Russell are on the same level of greatness IMHO, the Rockets were legimate title winners as the Bulls were. Jordan's retirement has been argued, but here's another question, would Jordan have six championships or simply three had he faced the Rockets in the Finals years of '96, '97 and '98? Would the Rockets have seized five straight against the Bulls? Hmmm....a theory for another day.

In closing, I believe Yao Ming will continue to develop into an exceptional player and in a few years, the ELITE/BIG SIX will have to become THE ELITE SEVEN:

Yao
Hakeem
Wilt
Shaq
Russell
M. Malone
Kareem


In '96, '97, '98, the Bulls would present more of a challenge

 

Sorry about the incomplete post.

 

Dream would take all these suckers to school.