Shaq "I'm still in the class of Hakeem and David Robinson"

I suggest you rephrase that...

Even with that, Shaq still has the edge in Finals Appearances, 5-3

 

I'll say it again, when Shaq carries a team without another allstar to a title, then we'll talk. And I'm not even talking about a SUPERSTAR, I'm talking about an All Star. Until then this is all just pissin' in the wind.

Shaq isn't clutch and Dream was.
Both could score.
Both could board.
Dream was a defensive FORCE, Shaq isn't.
Dream could hit a jumper or dunk, Shaq can dunk.
Dream could steal like a guard, Shaq can't.
Dream could carry a team, Shaq can't.
Shaq can be big, Dream wasn't.

No contest IMO.

 

I wonder if Jordan didn't retire during those two years, would we have the same discussion right now?

I don't want to take anthing away from what dream did, he was phenomenal those two years, but you could argue that he wasn't the best player during his era, while Shaq was the dominant force in his era.

 

Of course not. Defeating the Bulls would have put Dream way ahead of Shaq unquestionably.

 

Except, of course, for the fact that Jordan was only retired for one full season and played during the second half of 94-95, including the playoffs. Everyone was saying "He's back!" right up until the point when Nick Anderson punked him in the playoffs and the Bulls got beat by Orlando. The convenient excuse of "he was rusty" was created after the fact, to preserve the infallability of His Airness.

 

Honestly I don't think Dream could have taken down the Bulls during Jordan's prime. (plus during Pipen's prime)

 

i agree. no one was saying he was rusty, when a few games after he returned, he dropped 55 on the knicks. thats the thing about jordan -- people always had excuses for him.

i can remember it like yesterday:

Marv Albert: "Jordan with the shot...... ooooooh, he missed.

well, he was suffering from the flu three weeks ago. thats why he missed"

 

On the contrary, the Rockets dominated the Bulls prior to Jordans first retirement. I think they won 5 out of 6 regular season games during the 1st three Bulls championships with Jordan and Pippen. Mad Max used to frustrate Jordan. Mad Max is one of the few guys I ever saw get Jordan visibly frustrated.

The Bulls rebuilt during 94 and 95. Paxson, Cartwright and Grant went bye-bye. Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr and Longley took their place.

I doubt the Rockets could have beat the retooled Bulls from 96 on, but I think they could have beat them in 94 and 95.

Of course we will never really know now will we.

 

If championship rings get you greatness, then I vote Robert Horry.

Robert Horry should go down as one of the greatest role players of the modern NBA. How many rings does Horry have now?

Horry's playoff heroics should keep his memory alive on ESPN Classic.

 

He's in the same class as Chuck Nevitt and Charles Jones. He can elevate his game to Shawn Bradley, Sam Bowie, and Cadillac Anderson, for ALL I CARE.

Saturday, a WIN is all I want. Yao will get HIS, just like Christmas a year ago...

 

I suggest you go watch those game tapes again buddy (from the 95 finals). Dream did not destory Shaq (like he did Robinson), but he clearly outplayed him (try looking past statistics), including hitting a game winning shot as his team swept 4-0.

Of course we can. If you dominate scrubs (Shaq) and the other guy dominates HOF'ers (Dream), I'm giving more props to the guy that dominated the HOF'ers. Duncan plays PF, but in the key moments they put Shaq on him (4th qtr). The funny thing is that the Spurs went through LA for both of their titles, mainly because they had a big man that actually had to be guarded (Duncan) and another one that Shaq couldn't just walk over (Robinson). Take Kobe away from that series and LA loses. As someone else stated, Shaq needs a second star to get it done. Dream did not.

How can you claim Shaq played Dream tougher than Ewing (whose team lost 4-3) or Robinson (whose team lost 4-2)? Shaq's team got SWEPT, and his team was arguably more talented than the Knicks or Spurs. End of story....

What about 1993/94? Could Shaq have led that team, or any team without another All-Star type player to a title?

I'm glad you brought up Game 6, because it clearly highlights the main difference between Shaq. Shaq is dominant on one side of the floor. Dream was dominant on both sides. In case you forgot, Dream rotated over and blocked the potential game winning shot in Game 6. Could Shaq have made that play?

What stats, besides points and FG%? You fail to recognize that more help makes it easier to get more accomplishments (titles, playoff MVP's). If Shaq leads Miami to the finals this year, it won't be any different than the previous years where he led a team with an all-star perimiter player (ya know, the ones that they have to count on in the games closing seconds since Shaq becomes a liability).

 

I don't see how it's even much of an argument. The Magic kicked the crap out of the Bulls, and then we kicked the crap out of the Magic. Clearly, we would've done the same to the Bulls. And if you wanna cite matchups, just look at the regular season games.

And of course, like SamCassell said, don't even bring out that "Jordan was rusty" stuff... he played like 20 games before the playoffs even started.

 

Actually, MJ's numbers during that playoff run were better than his numbers during the second 3-peat. He just didn't have a PF that year.

 

Besides, Miami made it pretty far last year without Shaq... Wade was big in the playoffs.

 

I dearly hope you simply forgot about Oscar Robertson. And how about Scottie Pippen and Dave Cowens? I'd say leading your team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks over an entire season should get you in the "complete" category...

EDIT: And now that I think about it some more, what about Magic? Dude played all 5 positions, all very well. And Bird didn't block shots so well, but he did everything else. Jordan and Hakeem are good picks, but I think it's pretty much impossible to decide on just one or two "most complete ever" players.

 

Funny you say Shaq needs to be a complete player, then you say Wilt is the best.

Just because he does not shoot jumpers, does not make Shaq a one-dimensional player. Is Jason Kidd a one-dimensional player, by that logic?

Shaq is still a very intimidating presence on defense, whether or not he ACTUALLY plays defense.

 

Exactly.

I get so irritated at all these people who really endorse the idea that Jordan won by himself. It's never "well, he didn't have a star power forward that year" (Grant, Rodman), it's always "he had court rust."

Jordan needed Pippen/Grant/Rodman. He didn't just take them along for the ride.

 

I would argue if you made a first team Most Complete Players in the Game that Hakeem should be your starting center.

Magic is the freaking MVP of that team, of players who played in my lifetime.

 

Thank you "HayesStreet." That was the best post of the year!

 

I enjoyed reading your post.