Shaq "I'm still in the class of Hakeem and David Robinson"

c'mon guys you are all homers. lionheart is right cause he types in all caps. you can't argue with that, it's too solid. your list is a joke fool.

nationally, shaq will always be regarded as better then hakeem but it has nothing to do with anything other then him being a los angeles laker during the prime of his career. that's it. if dream won 2 championships for the lakers from 93-95 there is no question his name would atleast be three times more legendary then it is now.

i have no problem with shaq being considered as an equal to hakeem. he is the most dominant center of his generation much like dream was of his. however i draw the line at him being considered better or even way better like clowns like lionheart think. say all you want about, '"i love hakeem, i watched the rockets because of dream" but i don't buy it. hakeem was a monster and as dominant as shaq has been in a watered down guard dominated league, hakeem was just as much against some of the best centers in history. hakeem is the league leader in block shots and the only center in the top ten in steals, which is ridicuous. shaq is not half the defensive player dream was.

the only thing shaq has is more rings which is why i concede to give him a seat next to dream. he also won them all with a top 5 player right next to him. dream never had that advantage.
calling people a homer is a stupid cop-out answer because there is nothing that really merits shaq as a better player.

 

Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Duncan (really an out of position center)
Robinson
--something like that with major gaps between.

To be fair, Shaq, as a young pup, played Hakeem in his prime MUCH better in those playoff games than Hakeem, as an older guy, played Shaq in his prime. I suspect if you compare the individual matchups over all playoff and non-playoff games, Shaq beat him.

I will agree it is insulting to group Hakeem with Robinson though. Hakeem destroyed him when both were in his prime and lead his team to titles. Robinson is substantially behind Hakeem, but also behind Moses and his teammate who carried Robinson to his rings.

But Shaq has 3 titles and 3 playoff MVPs. And more dominant statistics than Hakeem. Though I would say they are close to the same class--certainly not in Wilts class, Shaq is a nod ahead.

Wilt and Russell, like Shaq were crappy FT shooters. But you have to look at the totality of their domination, statistics, rings, etc. They plus Kareem are the 4 best centers, with Hakeem securely rounding out the top 5, and with no sign of losing it for at least, what, 15 years or more.

 

You have gotta be kidding

Hakeem was a lot more fun, but Shaq is just a step better than Hakeem, I think most people would acknowledge that. His offensive stats are better in almost every possible category.

I would say though that Hakeem is more talented than Shaq, but not better overall or nearly as dominant as Shaq.

But that could be argued.

 

Yes, an outcome is decided in 4 quarters of play. Basketball is also played on both sides of the court. Even if you give Shaq the advantage on offense (which would be minor), Dream kills him on defense.

The ONLY advantage Shaq has over Dream (as far as their games are concerned) is the amount of points Shaq puts up. Considering that no one could stop either player at their peaks (I mean, who could contain Dream), and Dream's expanded offensive game, give me Dream anyday. You want to point to Shaq's offensive dominance...but who could stop Dream? He won titles going through Ewing, Robinson and Shaq! And you can't disregard the intangibles (the ability to go to him for a game winner, or his ability to hit clutch freebies).

Amen. The haters seem to ignore that....

You are really reaching by trying to compare a young player full of energy and hops going up against someone in their prime to an older player on his last legs going up against someone in their prime. Would you rather have the young Shaq, or the old Dream?

Shaq also played with a second superstar in all 3 of those titles. He has played with help for the majority of his career. Dream has not. Which Rockets team could Shaq have led to a title? Which Lakers team would have lost if you replaced Shaq with Dream?

More dominant stats then Dream? I hope you mean on offense. Shaq has never lead the league in boards or blocks. He isn't in the top 10 in steals. His FT numbers are pathetic. I didn't know your stats were more dominant because your PPG average was higher. I guess Dominique had more dominant statistics than Hakeem too.

 

you have got to be kidding

his offensive stats are better great how about his defensive stats? didn't want to mention that did ya? roll your eyes some more. fact is shaq can't hold dream's jock on the defensive end. he's nowhere in the same level.

 

I wish there was a way to settle this endless, recurring debates so we can all sleep soundly at night.

Arguments can be made that Hakeem is better than Shaq and vice versa.

It's all about personal preference. Being a Rockets fan, I'll pick Hakeem every day but if I get Shaq, it's ok. It's a win-win situation.

If Houston pulled on that supposed Sampson for Jordan trade, it would be Game Over. We'd be all talking about Boston v Houston for championship supremacy.

 

thing is when u talk about the lack of training and non-athletic players in the past, Wilt and Russel had the same training as those guys.

So in saying that; today if they played they would have even better then they were then from better training.

But overall its so hard to say who is better. Sometimes i think it really has to do with what style you think is better what teams u dislike and like.

I do think though when you look at the whole package Hakeem was up there with the best of the best. He was a great passer out of double teams, athletic, great shot blocker, and a team player.

If you could have thrown Hakeem with Jordan, Pippen, Drexler, Barkley, or Karl Malone in there prime together it would have been sick.

 

and Sabonis > Hakeem?

 

I think it would be interesting to see how they all played at their peak in the same era though. I mean these days it doesnt take much to be a top center in the NBA.



On thing I'll say about Shaq. Even at his best, I got the feeling that there was improvments he could have made to his game. Freethrow shooting, defense, offenece away from the basket, consistancy, leadership......

Hakeem at his best yjust left you goings "Wow" as on the defensive side he was brilliant and on offence he could make the best in the league look stupid.


Just a thought, has Shaq ever completely abused another top class center like Shaq did with Robinson? All of those great centers had an opponent, someone who they regularly took on in the big games and proved themselves against. They also did this while at their best.

Has Shaq had that great opponent?

 

Excellent question. No, I don't think Shaq has ever dominated another world-class center. He hasn't really even dominated Yao Ming on average over the last few games.

 

To 99% of NBA fans who are not Rocket fans Wilt, Shaq, Russell and Kareem are in their own class.

Dream was a great player, but outside of Houston and some very astute NBA fans he doesn't get his dues. But it's still funny on this board to hear people say a few years ago "Let Shaq in Championships than he can be compared to Dream", then it was "Have Shaq win 2 Championships and then he can be compared to Dream", now it's "Have Shaq win a championship by himself without another superstar like Dream" or "Shaq can't shoot free throws".

Reality is Dream was better athletically than all centers except Wilt (who was a freak). But Shaq is so commercialized that people elevate him. That is taking nothing away from Shaq, just saying I don't think he's any/much better than Dream.

 

I remember Shaq destroying Dream when CB4 was with the Rockets in the one series (got so bad that Rudy put Charles on Shaq). Keep in mind Dream was well past his prime but Shaq looked good. Even when they met in the finals when Shaq was a pup he still put up similar numbers to Dream, even though Dream was a far more complete player and (most importantly) won the series.

At the same time you can't discount Shaq for not having competition. Dream, Ewing and Robinson all were past their primes as Shaq went to the Lakers. All 3 of those guys are top 20 centers of all time. Also Shaq can't be blamed for Duncan choosing to play PF.

 

If you check the numbers of those HOFs, the main reason they
inducted to HOF was bunch of rings. If Wilt led Philly or Indy to
3 rings, we would talk about how his teams were loaded
with HOFs (actually he did have 2 HOFs around him most of his career).

Russell won 11 rings. He was also a 5 times MVP. I think that
said something about Russell.

 

Im taking nothing away from any of these players.


I would suggest that of all the top centers that have been named, the Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson era was the toughest for a center to compete in.


So who is in the Shaq era?


Would it be fair to say that if Wilt, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and all these other top centers had played in the Shaq era against the lack of true stars Shaq has faced up against, they would aleast match the totals Shaq has put up, if not better them?


Im not bagging Shaq. He is clearly the most dominant center of his era. All Im saying is that Shaq hasnt had that career defining showdown that every other top center has.


Case in point...

Robinson has a great season and wins the MVP award. But when the games REALLY counted, in those chmapionship moments.....we found out something about Robinson and about his opponent in that fatefull series.



Shaq hasnt had that moment. The closest he came to it was in 1995....and thats just unfair to a great player to judge him on that series.






Like I said, Im not putting Shaq or anyone dwon. Im just saying that all of the greats in the game had SOMEONE that they faced off with, who took them to another level and vice versa.

Shaq meanwhile has been able to steamroll second rate opponents, and I for one would love to have seen him at his best in a Championship game against another brilliant center in his prime.

 

Shaq dominated when Hakeem/Robinson/Ewing were in their
prime. He got about 30 pts 13 rbs in his 2nd year. Dream didn't
school Shaq in 1995 finals. In fact, Shaq played toe-to-toe with
prime Dream. The results was determined by other players.

 

Come on now, you know that logic makes zero sense, Jordan won 6 MVPs Steve Kerr won how many?

When we're talking about some of the greatest players in NBA history talent shouldn't seperate them, winning should, that's why Russell should be the greatest player ever.

 

But Dream delivered almost everytime in the late 4th quarter with games on the line. That was THE series that elevated Dream to the current status.

 

But it is a team game...

 

Bill Russell's teams always won, well 11 out of 13 so not always I guess, maybe Russell had a lot to do with that?

 

Hakeem outplayed Shaq in 1995. But consider Shaq even knowing nothing about NBA basketball played Dream far tougher in that series than Robinson or Ewing ever did (I think Hakeem even admitted Shaq was more difficult to play even then)--the latter of whom people are saying were great centers and proved Hakeems metal. (personally, Duncan IMO was a more formidable playoff player than either Ewing or Robinson in their primes)

Also, Shaq brought his team to the finals 3 times (and counting)Hakeem twice. They were MVPs on winning teams in all of them. And to count Kobe as important in Shaq runs you have to count Drexler for the Hakeem's 2nd. Even in Hakeem's 1st run, it ends if the Knicks make 1 shot in game 6 or Houston misses 1 extra shot in the Phx series--so the margin between defeat and victory was razor thin.

I prefer not to say it or admit it, but yes Shaq has a stronger case for being the better player. I wonder if many of ya'll will still discount this if Shaq brings Miami to the finals. I agree it is close, and Hakeem perhaps could have had a greater impact because of talent on defense--but the proof is in the accomplishments (titles, playoff MVPs) and stats edge to Shaq.